13 Feb 2021 11:28:30
Ed 007 I've been listening to the debate this week in sport generally and had been meaning to canvass your opinion and that of my fellow posters on the site for a while but given the controversy that was sparked at the rugby last week what are your thoughts on Celtic 'taking the knee' before every game this season?
Is it right? Is it wrong? Is it a political statement? Do the fans support the gesture? Do any fans have issues with it? What is the clubs official stance? Are all Celtic players required to do it or is it left to individual conscience? Should players be allowed to dissent if they so wish for whatever reason? Should it continue into next season?
What's the general opinion on the matter? Do you have one? It would be very interesting to hear your individual and collective thoughts.
{Ed007's Note - I don't think any campaign/action against racism can be wrong or political, JFP. The right-wing morons that that have issue with it simply don't understand what it means. The point of Black Lives Matter isn't to suggest that black lives should be or are more important than all other lives. Instead, it’s simply pointing out that black people's lives are relatively undervalued in the US (and other countries) — and more likely to be ended by police — and these countries need to recognize that inequity to bring an end to it.
Would people start shouting at someone collecting for cancer research "What about Alzheimer's?" If your house was on fire would the guy across the road be shouting at the fireman about how his house matters too?}
13 Feb 2021 18:57:29
While I agree with the Black Lives Matter movement and the sentiment behind taking the knee. I do think people should be allowed to object without a witch hunt being conducted against them for doing so.
A case in point is James McLean not wearing a poppy and being hounded for doing so. This really should not happen.
As a society we need to accept and be tolerant of those we disagree with and by all means debate with those you disagree with but sadly that does not seem to happen now. People get brow beaten for having a different opinion.
{Ed007's Note - It's got nothing to with the poppy stuff and there's absolutely no comparison. If you're disagreeing with the BLM stuff then you're agreeing with the racists, there is no right or wrong on this - it's an anti-racism campaign, that's all it is.
Instead of bringing up McClean's refusal to wear a poppy - yet nobody mentions players like Matic doing the same - why not compare the reasoning behind the BLM movement and how McClean, James McCarthy and Aiden McGeady have been treated?
Compare the BLM to the civil rights movements in the US, Martin Luther King, Jr., Malcolm X, look at Mandela in South Africa then look at the civil rights movement in Northern Ireland , all they are are people wanting a fair crack of the whip and to be treated the same as everybody else. They don't want to be better than anyone else - just treated the same way.
If you disagree with that then you're on the wrong side of life.
John 13:34-35
I give you a new commandment: love one another.
As I have loved you, so you also should love one another.
This is how all will know that you are my disciples,
if you have love for one another.
13 Feb 2021 20:16:22
Fantastic stuff Ed couldn’t agree more and think your analogies are absolutely first class gave great clarity to the issues raised Well done.
{Ed007's Note - As usual it's been hijacked with people looking to be offended rather than see the good in it.}
13 Feb 2021 20:27:11
you have just quoted the bible about how we should all love everybody it does not matter colour or creed or race but you call all people who vote tory morons is that a man who follows the whole bible or just bits he agrees with being right wing does not make you a racist or bad person we all have our own opinion on life.
{Ed007's Note - What colour, creed or race is a Tory? Colour and race isn't a choice - is creed a choice?? - but being a Tory is a personal choice they've taken - I'd never call someone a moron over something they have no choice over, that's just ridiculous.
Whether being right wing makes you racist is something that history will decide - but it's not looking good so far is it - and whether they are a bad person or not will be up to a higher power than me on their Judgement Day.
I'm no expert on the Bible but I can probably hold my own in a conversion about the gist of it - the passage I posted is a good place to start.}
13 Feb 2021 21:41:41
to call people morons who you do not agree with is ok by you i have never seen any place in the bible god calling anybody morons who did not agree with his teachings i wonder if your idology is the same as the hiarchy at celtic park as far as i know the bible main them is love the sinner hate the sin so never call anybody a moron because they have different views from your thinking as far as i am led to believe celtic football club is opened to all not people who think it is their own domain who 6000000 should think the same
by the way im cetic all the and love the banter with you no malice.
{Ed007's Note - A club open to all refers to race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, etc It is not, and should not be twisted to be, an excuse to accept or hold abhorrent views supporting a party or their politics that are directly responsible for so much poverty and suffering across the world. Millions of people have died due to the direct result of Tory austerity & their policies home and abroad with over 4 million kids (probably more now with Covid) living in poverty as a direct result of Tory decisions.
Tory isn't a race, colour or creed, it's a personal choice and they need to held responsible for their actions.
It's really nothing to do with the BLM movement though is it, that's above and beyond political beliefs and down to equality as a human being regardless of skin colour, the race or gender you identify with or your ethnic origin. The point is why does any of that matter?
If all lives matter then prove it.}
13 Feb 2021 22:12:16
Essentially, the closet racists are desperate to link taking the knee before games to the rioting and looting in America last year so they can justify their complete lack of human decency.
13 Feb 2021 22:22:07
so as a tory voter i should not be allowed into celtic park or even support the team i have followed seventy years through thick and thin even worst times that they are going through now i even remember they where one game away been relegated and i will be one of the first in the doors even if lennon is still the manager unlike a lot of people on these post i support celtic football club not who is in charge or who runs it.
{Ed007's Note -So.....
13 Feb 2021 23:55:14
@Ed007 you totally missed the point I was making, which was people should be allowed to abstain from partaking in the actions if they wish. In addition, they should not be crucified in the media for doing so.
While I agree there are differences between Black Life's Matter movement and the poppy appeal, there are also similarities between them. Both are heavily politicised and you are crucified in the media if you do not wear a poppy or if you do not take the knee. That is why I mentioned James McLean being hounded for not wearing the poppy. I am saying that James McLean should not be hounded and the Scottish rugby players should not be hounded.
{Ed007's Note - My point is that if you're against anything anti-racist then you're on the side of racists. It can't be compared to the poppy stuff, would you compare wearing a poppy to the Show Racism the Red Card campaign or LGBT rights? Those are more what BLM is all about.}
14 Feb 2021 11:56:52
I am not saying they are the same, can I be any clearer?
My whole point is that people should be allowed to abstain from making these political statements if they choose to do so and if they do choose to do so, they should not be crucified in the media for doing so. Now you may or may not agree with my opinion and that is your choice.
I should also point out that not taking the knee does not make you a racist and it certainly should not warrant a media attack, which is the thing I do not agree with. From my understanding of the story, 6 nations rugby events, the standard protocol was to stand and reflect.
{Ed007's Note - It's not a political statement though and yes, if you disagree with an anti-racism movement then you are 100% on the side of the racists.}
14 Feb 2021 14:05:03
Whether you agree or not both the black lives matter movement and the poppy have been politicised.
What evidence is there that the Scotland/ England/ Welsh rugby players that did not take the knee disagree with the black lives matter movement?
14 Feb 2021 15:32:38
I have heard many people explain why they do not wear a poppy and such explanations for the most part are perfectly understandable. On the other hand I have yet to hear any sort of argument that makes any sense whatsoever for someone not taking the knee.
14 Feb 2021 16:31:01
Ramos, consider this.
Billy Vunipola of England did not take the knee despite being of ethnic origin himself.
This is what he said "What I saw in terms of that movement was not aligned with what I believe in. They were burning churches and Bibles. I can't support that".
Anyway, the point was never about the merits of the Black Lives Matter movement, as I am sure most of us agree that racism has no place in society and the quicker it is eradicated the better.
My sole point, was that people should not be crucified by the media, if they choose not to take the knee and they should not have to justify their actions.
By the way, in the 6 nations, taking the knee was not being practiced. Prior to last weekend, the players stood in silence while anti-racist messages were displayed, so the players were just doing what they normally do.
Out of interest, do you think James McLean should be crucified in the press for not wearing a poppy and do you think he should have to justify his actions?
My only issue is the way the media and parts of society publicly crucify people for not adopting a common practice.
{Ed007's Note - Is that THIS Billy Vunipola? I'm afraid you and Billy the Bigot have been taken in by fake news
THIS should explain the so called mass bible burnings and THIS explains how a mentally ill man who "said he was “on a mission,†called himself “king†and mentioned he has problems with the Catholic Church, referencing passages in the Bible’s Book of Revelations." set fire to a church.}
14 Feb 2021 17:26:09
Whether or not BLM activists burned churches or bibles is a moot point. (lay off the argumentum ad hominem as it is a poor way to argue and shows that you do not have valid points to counter the opposing argument. )
The important thing is whether Billy Vunipola believed they were. If he believed they were, then he would not have wanted to endorse the movement. Do you have evidence he did not believe this to be true?
I don't believe I commented on the validity of the allegation, feel free to highlight me doing so if you think otherwise.
So answer this question Ed, are the Welsh, Irish, Scottish and English players who did not take the knee all on the side of racists, despite this gesture not being practised in rugby?
Their normal practise is to stand in silence while anti-racist messages are displayed.
{Ed007's Note - I can't help it if Billy Vunipola is an ignorant fool who believes anything he sees on social media. I don't know how many times I need to repeat this, if you are against something then you're on the opposite side, we're talking common sense here, not about BLM or poppies or what goes on at rugby.
If you oppose (are against) anti-racism that means you are pro-racist, it's literally what it means. Were anti-Trump rallies really pro-Trump rallies but they just didn't think to mention it? If people disagree with the anti-nuclear arms movement you'll probably find they are for (pro) us keeping them. There's no grey area, look at the abortion debate, the gay marriage debates etc etc you're either for or against something and if you take one side then you're (against) the polar opposite to the other.
It's like talking to a brick wall so this conversation is now over.}
14 Feb 2021 19:18:45
Who is against what?
14 Feb 2021 19:26:02
You seem to think I am saying something that I am not saying btw.
{Ed007's Note - LAW you're a good lad & poster so we're not falling out over this but I have no idea what you're trying to say then. You're saying it's acceptable to be against an anti-racist movement and I'm saying it's not, if you're anti anti-racism then you're on the racists side and that's never a good side to be on. Forget the BLM banner and look at the message, if you're against the message you're on the wrong side.}
14 Feb 2021 20:05:53
I am not saying that at all mate. I suggest you read over what I said.
{Ed007's Note - " the point I was making, which was people should be allowed to abstain from partaking in the actions if they wish"
Why would anyone abstain from partaking in ANYTHING that's against racism unless they they are pro-racism? You don't go to an anti-abortion rally if you're pro-choice, you don't go to an EDL march if you're Antifa etc etc
I will still say that you can't compare anti-racism with the poppy culture that has grown over the last 20 years or so one is a social movement and one is a money making racket backed up with jingoistic British Nationalism. Would you compare the rainbow laces in football or the LGBT movement to the poppy stuff?
Would you support someone who refused to acknowledge the LGBT/rainbow stuff when it comes around in football?
Would Billy Vunipola support LGBT rights? 😉
14 Feb 2021 20:15:38
My whole point is I do not like the way people are crucified in the media for not taking part in particular political statements.
I also said that rugby players have not been taking the knee. They have been doing a standing silence instead. This whole incident has been made into something it isn't.
{Ed007's Note - Anti-racism isn't a political statement.}
14 Feb 2021 20:30:28
Lennon at Work
I take your point re rugby players etc but those players did not stand due to them disagreeing with the actual cause. Regarding the point made regarding the burning of churches and bibles, I am slightly confused as to what has to do with not taking the knee. The looters were not looting to show their support of black lives matter but rather they used the situation to indulge in thuggish behaviour. Causes are often hijacked as can be seen with 'Save our Heroes' especially in the West of Scotland.
14 Feb 2021 21:21:24
@Ramos, where are you getting that information from about players not doing it because they don't agree with the cause? Can you share it please.
{Ed007's Note - Billy Vunipola of England - "What I saw in terms of that movement was not aligned with what I believe in."
Here's Anthony Watson, another (black) English rugby player:
"I just feel very strongly that it’s a double standard at the moment. Everyone wants athletes to have opinions and express themselves but when they do, a lot of people are shot in the foot for it or even more serious things can come from it.
Particularly with the kneeling stuff and the Black Lives Matter stuff, I think that if people were educated fully on why kneeling was started, then they would be in a much better place to comment on what we are doing and what is going on.
Not everyone who is kneeling is directly associated with the Black Lives Matter organisation because some of their views, in my opinion, are extreme.
But the importance of kneeling to raise awareness of social injustice is still massively important. So to see people on social media trying to discredit its importance...I can’t let that slide.
My point is that people don’t really understand that not everyone who is kneeling is directly correlated to the Black Lives Matter organisation.
People just want to jump on that because it’s their way of disagreeing with it instantly and, for me personally, I can’t let that slide."
14 Feb 2021 21:26:28
@ed007, Black Lives Matter is a political movement. Go on their website and it is blatently so but this is not the crux of my point.
{Ed007's Note - I said anti-racism isn't a political statement, unless you're racist of course. Being anti-racist isn't a political stance no matter what social media says and I really have no idea what point you're trying to make.}
14 Feb 2021 22:18:52
@Ed007 - here is Billy Vunipola's quote in context:
“A similar situation happened with the Black Lives Matter movement last week when we were asked if we want to take a knee or not, †Vunipola told The Good, The Bad and The Rugby podcast.
“What I saw in terms of that movement was not aligned with what I believe in. They were burning churches and Bibles. I can’t support that.
“Even though I am a person of colour, I’m still more a person of, I guess, Jesus
At no point is he saying he is for racism.
With regards Anthony Watson, he actually took the knee, so I am failing to understand why you linked that as it is not clear.
{Ed007's Note - But the stories of burning bibles and churches are exaggerated and not true as I have proven. Read what Watson said, if you can't understand it that's not my fault.
Once again, this is pointless and I have no idea what you are on about - I doubt you have either - so just drop it. I'll be deleting any replies to this from you You're verging on the moronic with this and not looking too good.}