Celtic Banter Archive October 06 2014

06 Oct 2014 23:24:32
Just wondering was last season so bad under Lennon, the grass isn't always green on the other side. PS, gud luck 2 lenny if he is going 2 saudí, (wasted talent) someone needs to tell him bout the temperatures, his wi napper will b toasted. HH

This season hasn't started well, but last season was anything but a success.

Out the SLC in the 3rd round, out the SC in the 4th round, 5 UCL Group Stage defeats including a 6-1 embarressment at Camp Nou.

We won the league at a canter, but that's because we only had one prize to play for February to May!

In September and October when we had plenty of competitions in which we had an interest in, we were not in sixth position and hadn't lost home and away

HB, Thank God we are not in the CL, imagine what the likes of Real Madrid or Chelsea would do to our lot. A lot has been said about us common supporters not understanding Ronnys methods but the way I see it, I count myself as a normal fan with average intelligence, but I know crap football when I see it and I have seen it far too often this season for my liking. Hail Hail

Yourman, Morton had already knocked us out of the SLC (1-0 AET, courtesy of Dougie Imrie) by this point last season. Sure it was September?

We'd also lost two UCL Group Stage games by the beginning of October.

If 6 or 7 league wins in what should be a one horse race is defined as interesting then I give up.

I agree TTT, 18 months ago I would've fancied our chances to not only qualify but win the group Maribor got - Chelsea, Schalke and Sporting CP.

I also agree with you about crap football, I've never found it so hard to go to a game and when I'm there I'm finding it hard to give 100% participation singing, etc.

06 Oct 2014 19:01:08
Take a look at these stats.

Tony Mowbray Plyd 45 w 23 d9 L 13
Ronny Deila Plyd 18 w 8 d5 L5

At this rate Ronny will have almost mirrored Tony Mowbray

we cannot afford to be in the position where we have to appoint a new manager in Jan or later next year to win the league.
Then be in a position of strength when Rangers come up.
If PL & DD cannot see this and only the bank balance, then we will be in a very desperate place come May.

Thoughts please
HH

{Ed007's Note - I think that's a totally pointless comparison, to compare something over 45 games with something over 18 matches is just plain stupidity. Does that mean Frank O'Connor is the best manager we've had? He was undefeated, P4 W3 D1 and L0. including wins over Rangers and Sporting Lisbon
In season 2011/12 Lennon's first 15 games resulted in 7 wins, 3 draws and 5 defeats. Deila's record for his first 15 matches is 7 wins, 4 draws & 4 defeats, isn't that a fairer comparison
On the 5th November 2011, Rangers go 15 points clear of Celtic, 7th November 2012, a year later, Celtic beat Barcelona 21 and reached the last 16 of the Champions League - same manager.
Season 2011/12 playing in the EL, after 2 games - 2 points, 2014/15 after 2 games - 4 points.}

06 Oct 2014 21:15:56
Was not looking for anything other than a quick comparison between Ronny and how Mowbray did, before we bagged him.

thx Ed

{Ed007's Note - Well compare it with Mowbray's first 18 games, you wouldn't compare a sprinter with a marathon runner over 100 metres.}

I have to say I totally misread Deila when he came to Celtic . Deila spoke of his desire to play beautiful attacking football.
However all he has delivered so far is the most dour football with no semblance of excitement and total fear heart in the mouth, when our "moves" break down . Surely we can have more bodies in a position to defend when we lose the ball.

The thing that destroyed big Tony was his attitude of taking it on the chin when the match officals either purposely or accidently gave decisions against Celtic . I hope Deila doesn't allow them to destroy Celtic this season. Already Celtic didn't appeal Derk's suspension, nor was there any mention of the penalty shout on Sunday
I liked the way Lennon spoke out every time he thought the officials had wronged Celtic .
The refs don't lose the games on us but if the manager speaks up for the players it may help to create a bond .

I don't think it's fair to compare him to Tony Mowbray just yet, but he is headed that way.

It would be fairer to compare his record to that of Alex Neil's this season, both rookies in their first Scot Prem season as manager.

Domestic form:

Accies: P12 W8 D3 L1 F22 A7
Celtic: P9 W5 D2 L2 F18 A7

-----------------------------------------

Ronny in Europe: P8 W3 D2 L3 F7 A9

{Ed001's Note - seems an unfair comparison too. Neil may be a rookie, but he is not trying to change a whole culture at his club. Not sure who you can compare him to, being honest. Ferguson was way back in the past, a totally different era when he took over Man Utd. Wenger walked into a club already in the midst of turmoil, desperate to change. Deila will probably end up in a similar role to Bruce Rioch at Arsenal, in my opinion, the catalyst for change, but never the beneficiary of it.}

Aye, true I guess Ed.

Neil probably falls into the beneficiary role at Accies. Ronnie McDonald and Billy Reid brought in the philosophy, Les Gray and Alex Neil have took it to the next level after 7-8 yrs of investment.

I totally get (and agree with) what he's trying to do, and it's not before time that Scottish football caught up to speed and treated the sport as a profession where the players are fitness fanatics and athletes, but I don't think Ronny can do that and manager the team at the same time. Let's hope I'm wrong!

If things don't work out (which I hope doesn't end up the case) then I'd like to see the club attempting to even reassign him to some form of Fitness Coach role.

Deila working hand in hand with our Head of Sports Science + Performance Consultant while someone else manages team selections and tactics could be successful.

{Ed001's Note - that may be the best solution long term. I do feel Deila has kind of been sent in as a fall guy by the board.}

ED, He has not been set up anywhere, I reakon I could have managed Celtic to better performances this season than he has done. You defence of Ronny is honouable but I wonder what your comments would have been if Lennon had the same results as our trusted new manager has had. Don't think you would have been defending him so Vigorously. Mind you it would have been a lot worse for his stats if we didn't have Craig Gordon. Hail Hail

{Ed001's Note - I am not defending him mate, I don't know the guy at all to have any reason to defend him. I am just trying to give another side to the argument, to try and give balance, as currently he is getting slaughtered with little support. Personally, like I said earlier, I am unsure he is the right man for the job, I think he has been brought in on a whim and a prayer in the hope he can perform a minor miracle.}

06 Oct 2014 17:50:51
Ronnie was scouted as a second assistant for lenny, the board think he has progressive ideas on restructuirng the football training system, was he always brought in foremost as a coach and put in charge to get a feel of the club and start his restructure until the real target jim mguiness finished his tenure with Donegal 2 days ago???????

06 Oct 2014 15:11:26
I see all the arguments about Deila etc, and yes I understand that the performances aren't good enough at the moment but can a manager really be judged after so few games?

It is not like he has his own players yet, they are all still the men of the previous manager and will not want to respond to his methods.

The question is, how long does he get? Coaching takes time, but can Celtic afford to give him that time? It could take a year or more for him to really get the team playing his way, is that too long to wait?

Fair comments ed. How long can he get? Fearing the worst but the further the league gets out of reach, the more serious it gets. First season or not, no pro manager should fail to win the SPFL with Celtic - without a strong Rangers. The issue for me though, you talk about RD having his own players. I don't think any manager would have that chance with us. My thinking is that is why certain "candidates" turned the job down.

{Ed001's Note - fair point, it is difficult to see how any manager can survive failing to win the SPFL with Celtic this season, even if it meant that the club were stronger in future seasons. It is difficult to see any board taking the chance, as it could be just as likely that he is out of his depth.}

Did John Barnes, Lou macari, tony Mowbray get time to turn things round simple answer no. In modern football watching players get paid vast wages fans are less forgiving at big clubs as standards have to be met. Ronny has been appointed from obscurity in most fans eyes and although we all see a decline in standards over the last couple of years no one has accelerated that more than ronny on the field of play. I have sympathy that he hasn't been backed properly in the transfer window but he should still have been doing better imo. Our reputation is as low as anytime recently having been pumped by spurs and legia and shocking performances domestically and at home to Maribor and dinamo Zagreb could and prob should have won at celtic park as well. Sometimes you get gut feelings about things mine says cut him loose and appoint someone that all the players and fans can believe in.

{Ed001's Note - do you feel the players are letting him down because they don't like the strict regime he has enforced?}

Ive backed Delia from start, but we should of won yesterday againist Hamilton. didn't see the game, but heard he played 4-3-3 again. Thought he would know by now that doesn't work.

Everyone is entitled to voice their support/concern regarding Delia, but the real question is who would replace someone who was originally 4/5th choice replacement for lennon? do the people who want delia out door honestly believe next manager would be any better?

Its time for Dermott Desmond to relinquish all ties with celtic. Only way forward as him and lawwell are treating club like a cash cow now.

Also see posts about not qualifying for CL and loss of revenue. Does it really matter if we loss revenue if money is not going to be reinvested?

06 Oct 2014 16:45:20
ED001 (nice to hear from you have you given Bond some time off )
As to Delia my views on him are pretty clear he is not the man to change things around at Celtic. Yes he talks a good game, but so do many other better coaches.
But his comments after the Hamilton defeat "he is not worried" were a disgrace, he should be worried and he should be tearing a strip off the whole team, but apparently Delia is "mr nice guy"
He may achieve the impossible and lose Celtic the SPFL title before he is removed.
I also blame the players and some of them seem to be not giving 100% which is wrong on their behalf.
He does not make any effort to engage with the celtic fans, if he loses the majority backing he will not last.

{Ed001's Note - I just usually cover before he gets up at around 3pm your time, so I have been reading a lot about Deila and how you all feel. I am struggling to know what to think, there are so many conflicting opinions on this. Clearly the club does need modernising and training methods are years behind those on the continent. Also, from what I have been told from certain people involved, there is a very clear reluctance from the players to adapt.
On the other hand, is Deila the man to bring about the necessary change? That I do have my doubts about. The change is needed, but I think a more well known name was needed to bring it about. Someone who had built up a reputation that the players would respond to, and get them to buy into his ideas.}

No I don't think the fitness side of things is a big issue with the players but I do think his tactics are a problem. From the start he has tried to play his preferred style without having the personnel to effect it, so he's made it more difficult for himself rather than bedding himself in first before changing a winning formula. The champions league revenue was massive to us and he gambled and lost not once but twice I would recommend he starts playing 2 up top to get momentum going before it's too late for him.

{Ed001's Note - do you think he can be the man to get it going?}

If we don't have a team of 11 guys out of the 50 odd players on our books who are buying into his methods then the manager is clearly the problem. He has absolutely no charisma and has been mentioned on here previously looks like a rabbit caught in the headlights on many occasions.

To be honest I was one of Lennon's harshest critics as he didn't have a plan B but RD doesn't even look like he has a plan A.

Ed if he left tomorrow, I don't think many in the support would grumble.

I'm willing to give him the season and another transfer window but only if progress is made in the domestic games by Christmas.

Not sure if you seen yesterday's game but it was simply awful. There were a few times during the game that Celtic resembled a game in the School playground the positioning and shape was so bad.

I know the old argument about a Manager inheriting another Managers players and he needs time to build his own but for me this is only used when the new Manager is failing. Everton improved under Martinez last season but the players were mostly Moyes.

What bit changes can Ronny possibly be making that the team cannot beat 2 teams that have just been promoted from the Scottish Championship and its not just a lucky goal Dundee or Hamilton got, they were deserved and Celtic looked no better than both team - infact they looked worse.

Fair enough by all means makes changes (I dare say most Managers do) but he has to do it gradually and whilst getting results - that's the deal at Celtic.

{Ed001's Note - and look at Everton now this season with Martinez's imprint on them. Hopeless! They look like Wigan. Does that not show that he needed a year to make his mark?}

Hi Ed, A think he went to far with the regime to ban fizzy drinks, toast, tomato sauce he could easily have sat them down and said this is the way a want you to eat and any one subscribing to this would have been a preferential pick / start every manager has there favourite's but he went to far IMO most modern day players get found out with the" bleep test" after pre season as to who has over did it on holiday! Very very early you could see they were not buying into it a cannot see him recovering now to be honest he went 4-4-2 against st Mirren for 4 mins got the winner and a thought okay you realise now what is needed four mins later he reverted back to 4-4-3

{Ed001's Note - but all of those things should be out of their diet! How is it going too far to do that? They are meant to be professional athletes, if they are not prepared to act like that, then they don't deserve to be well paid by the club. They are just like whiney teenagers, throwing tantrums because they aren't getting their way.}

No I don't think he is going to work, I am all for players having better diets and fitness 100% but tactics win more games and I don't see his. I see dn30 saying Desmond should go and I can understand that but I go the opposite way and call on dermot Desmond to pick up the slack and take a hands on approach and turn us around and appoint a better manager and back him like he did Martin o'neil rather than walking away. It might be wishful thinking but I'd rather try that before we go down sevcos route which is what could happen.

Just had a look on the Everton site, I thought Moyes was holding them back and Martinez was going to take them forward to bigger and better things? (not my opinion)

At least it took Martinez over a year to make them 'hopeless' Ronny has managed that in a matter of weeks.

{Ed001's Note - but is it better to have a short period of hopelessness turn into a good strong period, or a short period of looking good then falling into hopelessness?}

I think he needs more time its not like the league is running away from us! 4 points in 2 hard games in the EL is still a good result! Doesn't matter how we played its the results that count! He need to rotate but not drastically we should have bet Hamilton no bother but you win some you loose some

Hi Ed it was just a point regarding the post saying that Ronny hasn't got his own players in to work with yet. Gordon, Dienar, Wasako, Gudetti, Tonev and Yohanson (obviously not signed by him but you know what I mean) all involved on Saturday and signed during his short tenure. Not many managers only a few months into there stewardship would have as many of there own signings involved so early I don't think. The problem is other than Gordon and possibly Gudetti (although the jury is still out there) they are all rank! I'd prefer Stevie May to the strikers we have, and Makay Steven is a better wide player than Wasako and Tonev from what iv seen of them, which makes us a pretty average team right now, add to that the captains assertion that some are hiding and the results are not so surprising really. Markiebhoy

We're in a position where we can give rd time, providing he wins the league, but the way things are being run at the club, and the poor home support now (mostly caused by selling anything of value, and not replacing) finding a decent replacement would be a problem

I M O Deila says too much to the press. All this chat to the media about diet, only whets the appetite of opposing managers to gee-up their players to show them that Celtic's fancy diets don't work .
I think he was quoted about improving the whole Scottish game . He may have been misquoted on that but harm was done .

{Ed001's Note - it seems to be the 'modern' manager's way, talk a lot to make themselves seem more impressive, when their CV doesn't really stand up to close scrutiny. I would prefer them to prove themselves by getting their teams' to perform, but they seem to think talking a good game is just as important. Doesn't mean they can't get good performances as well though. Brendan Rodgers is one of the worst for talking and talking and talking, with all of it just making him look foolish, but last season Liverpool were breathtaking to watch. His first season, Liverpool were awful, so maybe that is a glimmer of hope for Deila?}

Despite the results and performance I think he needs more time. At least a season IMHO. And preferably two or three transfer windows, not including the last one. Having second rate loans, players who are ducking out of tackles, poor signings from the previous season, downsizing, key players losing form and injuries to key players have left us, the supporters, feeling short changed. I can understand the frustration and the knee jerk reactions from the fans. Still, we all wanted more competition, did we not?

Bankie yes we did want competition but it would have been better if the others got better(which they haven't) rather than us getting worse(which we have)

ED if i'm being honest, I just don't think Celtic and Ronny are the right mix.

Totally understand its early days and my reaction is seen as knee-jerk but I actually cannot see what it is he's trying to do (nothing to do with a Neil Lennon Calander?) and I reckon this diet/fitness issue is smoke and mirrors.

{Ed001's Note - I just think it is too early to judge anyone yet, certainly the players are obstructing him, which is an issue that needs to be solved.}

I have said I will give him the season if there's an improvement in the domestic games by Christmas.

On Sunday - Gordon, Guidetti, Denayer and Wakaso never played under Neil Lennon and Johansen played under Ronny at Stromsgodset so not sure its 100% the players either. Scott Brown was our best player and had been since comng back from injury and he's a Strachan/Lennon player (so to speak)

I just don't know, its just not adding up.

{Ed001's Note - I don't see this as anything to do with Lennon, the players' attitude is down to them, not Lennon. Though Lennon was, in my opinion, a complete dinosaur, the players are responsible for their own actions.}

I'm pleased you've said that about Lennon, it was just with all the Poll of the day questions and I was getting worried about the calander situation :-)

Thats what was driving me mad about posting on the Ronny situation, the accusations! The reason i'm questioning Ronny is strictly down to his results and the very worrying performances.

October is huge for him with back to back games v Astra who are the weakest in our EL and a Cup game at home v Partick Thistle. He also has to win his league games - a must now!

{Ed001's Note - is that because your Neil Lennon calendar is proudly displayed?}

Ed could you elaborate on how the players are obstructing ronny? It's just most fans don't see/hear what's going on at the training ground we only see on the field and it looks more like tactical problems we have and players off form.

{Ed001's Note - think of them like employees at your own work. The ones you know that shirk work at every opportunity and constantly moan and hinder everyone else. That is what you have at Celtic at the moment. Now they might be right about the tactics etc that he is trying to play, which is something they moan about, but they are not putting in 100% in the attempt to make them work, so no one will ever know if it is the tactics at fault.
I tell you what is a good example of what I mean, there was coverage of Mario Balotelli's warm up at Liverpool last weekend. While Borini is really going for it and trying his best to get ready, Mario is just sauntering about and not putting in any effort. That is what a group of players are doing at Celtic currently. Doing as little as they think they can get away with.
With this kind of culture change, from a gentle session under Lennon, with players able to muck about, to the strict workmanlike regime they are now facing, there are going to be these kind of issues. The board has to pick a side, or the players will continue to act like spoilt teenagers asked to clean up their own mess. If the board backs Deila and deals with the troublemakers, then he has a chance. Otherwise, they have to move him on, as he won't win a power battle with the team on his own, no manager can win without the board's full backing.}

Oh no, Stevie G is still proudly displayed :-)

{Ed001's Note - ah right, now that I can understand. He is slightly more pleasant on the eye then Mr Lennon! Reminds me of the old joke, what do you do if you come home and find Stevie G in bed with your wife? Tuck him in properly to make sure he doesn't catch cold.....

Sorry ed I don't think the players aren't trying but I do think they are not comfortable or adapting to ronnys tactics as most of the high profile players have recently backed his fitness method in public.you say a group aren't giving 100% so who are they and what are they doing as I don't think a warm up is a good enough excuse to condemn anyone.

{Ed001's Note - I am sorry, but you clearly aren't understanding what I am saying. Have you actually read what I said or just made things up in your head? I gave you an example of what is going on behind closed doors by pointing you to a very public recent case of it for you to see what I mean. I didn't say anything about warm ups being involved. As for players public backing, that is just like the board giving the vote of confidence, it means nothing. I will have to check I can give names, as I am not sure that the person who told me would want me to reveal those. It might give away the person who told me. I really don't know enough to know how much info is too much in this case.}

Sorry but I'm not making things up in my head you mentioned ballotelli who I couldn't give 2 hoots about as he is nothing to do with us. You haven't given any real substance just a group aren't giving their all and obstructing ronny. Are the group of players non starters or regulars or unfit players if you can't name them and a couple of examples would help ie eating kebabs and coke or not training properly or following instructions for tactics etc thanks

{Ed001's Note - sorry but you are obviously unable to understand the point I made. Clearly you can't understand that I was showing what kind of thing was happening by giving an example of another player doing so. Is that so difficult? Or are you so far up your own backside because he doesn't play for Celtic, that you fail to understand the point? As for not being able to name them, it is because it came direct from one of them and I don't want to drop him in it. Is that enough for you?}

No it's not not because you really haven't told us anything except ballotelli doesn't take warm ups seriously and borini does and a source says a group are obstructing ronny but not how exactly or wether they are regulars/back up etc

{Ed001's Note - if you really are unable to understand, then there is nothing I can do to help you.}

You could just answer a direct question what are they doing to obstruct ronny and question 2 are they regular starters or not? Question 3 is it 1 or 2 players or 5/10 players

{Ed001's Note - seriously? Did you really not understand the point I was making about Balotelli and how easy it is for players to be obstructive by just not putting any effort in? The other questions, I really don't think I should say, not until I have spoken to him and got his say so to give anything else in the way of information out.
What I can say is that he was clear that there are a few (but he was deliberately vague so it could be that he is trying to make it sound worse to get the manager out or he could just be trying to protect his mates, your guess is as good as mine there) players who are not putting the effort in on the training ground. He evaded questions about diet and if they are sticking to it. That could simply be down to him knowing I am fully in favour of the diet plan they have been given and my belief is he is not sticking to it. He tried to make it all about him and these few other players not believing in Deila's tactical plan etc, and that it was purely about that.
From the way he evaded questions about diet, I have to say I don't believe he was being entirely honest about what it was about. I honestly think he would have been happy to go along with the tactics, if the players were not being treated so strictly. The regime was called 'harsh' by him at one point, which leads me to believe that it is really just a powerplay between the players and the manager.
By the way, don't expect the players to come out and publicly do anything to undermine the manager, as that makes them look like the bad guys. At Stoke the players publicly backed Pulis in his final season, while privately asking for him to be sacked.}

Cheers ed

06 Oct 2014 11:27:54
Wonder if neil lennon would want to come back again since he isn't getting a job ne wer else!?. tough decision fo if he's wantin all t hassle again from mindless numpties!. and ther is competition so far. tryn to get this team to play together!

HH

Chris1888

06 Oct 2014 13:23:52
Do you not wonder why he isn't getting offered jobs? still probably living off that barca result

Lol probs!. but imo he's better than deila. and had the players playing for him!. I do miss watchn celtic games n seeing his ginger wee heed jumpin up n doon n screamin at his players.

Seen he's been offered job in saudi.! Surely not gna take that!

HH

Chris1888

06 Oct 2014 09:36:42
I posted 3 weeks ago that you could not rely on this team to win a crunch game for example a league decider on the last day even at home or dare I say against sevco.

The problems are the same since start of the season a lack of chances being created causing the opposition keeper to make any saves we are unable to keep a clean sheet and would have conceded more if it was not for the keeper.

Also a lack of tempo and effort during games even when and if we were to go 2 goals behind we would not win that match.

I do not know how stokes has lost weight and looks even slower the problem is with the manager end of and we look incapable of going on a decent run of wins to get some confidence and don't think we have the players to turn it round.

I do not know what is wrong just now but there is something far wrong and its not to do with diet and fitness that's for sure.

We can come away with all the stats in the world about how other Managers started their season, but there's no stat that will give the actual body language or lack of effort and passion by the players. They can't even keep a decent shape of position on the park that a Junior or Youth team can manage.