Celtic Banter Archive May 28 2014

28 May 2014 23:47:47
ED

Do you think there is any prospect whatsoever of an Atlantic League or some form of European League where the objective will be to take clubs from smaller countries and "combine the leagues" to create an ever larger TV audience to allow for a better distribution of TV and advertising / sponsorship monies to allow many of Europe's more prestigious clubs, currently under performing and economically disadvantaged, to compete more effectively?

The leagues would obviously have to "come together" and there would perhaps be a regional set-up to deal with logistics issues, but if so, would you be excited about a league containing the following;

A league of 16

(Participating countries would be Scotland, Norway Denmark, Switzerland, Austria, Holland, Sweden and Belgium)

Celtic
Rangers
Lillestrom
Rosenborg
FC Copenhagen
Brondby
Ajax
PSV
Malmo
IFK Goteborg
FC Basle
Grasshoppers Zurich
Austria Vienna
Rapid Vienna
Anderlecht
Club Brugges

(Obviously there would have to be a mechanism or pre-league to agree the 16 above!)

There would be 30 games in the above league with euro qualification . and here is the interesting part, the qualification for the euro spots would be as follows

if you finish in the top 4 you automatically go in to the european champions league (even if from same country) with clubs finishing in positions 5, 6, 7, and 8 competing in the europa league (directly), so the top half get european football

The domestic leagues (which would be quite small, say 10 clubs) would remain and the winners of each domestic league would split after home/away games and then go into a league of 8 (for example, Aberdeen, SK Brann, Aarhus, Feyenoord, Helsinborg, Lausanne, Swarowski Tirol, and (say) Mechelen, all playing home and away, with the top 2 from this mini-league of 8 playing in a play-off mini league of 4 clubs (home and away) with the bottom 2 from the super league above. to see who goes up (or stays up) and who goes down (or stays down) . the top 2 in the league of 4 would stay up

In time, you could see no representation in the super league from an original participating country but crucially they wouldn't be locked out of making it back to the super league as that "ticket" would always be available without any guarantees of actual participation, IE the 8 countries are the 8 countries

The domestic cup competitions would remain

There would be lots of huge matches even the mini league as a precursor to the playoffs to see who goes up and who goes down

The TV audience would be significant based on population analysis of the above countries, the population aggregate would be 70,000,000

WOULD CELTIC FANS GET EXCITED ABOUT SUCH A LEAGUE?

{Ed007's Note - A European Super-League is inevitable, all the major clubs will look to that to maximise their TV income. It will be a natural progression of the Champions League and is UEFA/FIFA's biggest fear regarding enforcing the FFP regs. CFC are not currently represented at the annual talks where the Euro big-hitters discuss their own plans for football.}

Don't think this is the answer. Sure we have outgrown Scotland but a league with no relegation and the same teams forever is going to have drawbacks.

I'd rather see transfer/salary caps across Europe based on the team's income and increased homegrown player rules + regulations before moving to England or forming a Euroleague.

Also, why would Sevco be part of that? They've never featured in European competition before.

FFP has been seen as a joke already as Man City are basically bunging UEFA a "fine" of £50m (which is a drop in the ocean to their Sheikh) to participate in next years competition with a squad size reduction as well - and stated they're going to break the rules again this summer by spending more money.

A firm hand is needed, ban clubs from Europe for 12 months if they breach FFP!

If we were to go down the route of a Euroleague but, it should also be a pyramid system. For example, two tiers.

Top tier Euroleague of 48 teams with two regular season conferences (East + West) - top 8 from each go through to the Last 16 in East meets West fixtures until the Final.

Do the same with a 2nd tier of 48 teams in a Eurocup but the four semi finalists don't only play out to win the Eurocup but they gain promotion to the East + West Euroleague conferences for the next season, replacing the bottom two clubs from each regular season.

Or is that a stupid idea?!

Well there could be relegation say the bottom three teams either play a play-off with the champions of their leagues or a straight swap for the champions of their individual leagues and the bottom 3 go back to their countries league.

Mrs E

in my model there is relegation and progression with the super league linked to the 8 participating domestic leagues

HamiltonBhoy

that is not a stupid idea and is not too dissimilar to my own idea where you have the super league and the 8 domestic leagues albeit yours is more regionalised and everything starts in the domestic league culminating in a super league for part of the season; my idea is the reverse

super league of 16 (top 8 qualify for europe…4 to ECL and 4 to EL)

bottom 2 play in a league of 4…the other 2 coming from the top 2 in a league of 8 (being the top clubs in the 8 domestic leagues) with 2 up and 2 down

domestic cup competitions remain in place (good for youth and B teams etc)

so if you take aberdeen, say they win their domestic league of 10, they would go in to a league of 8 with 7 other clubs from the 7 other domestic leagues …and say aberdeen finish in top 2 …they would play in a league of 4 involving the bottom 2 from the super league and the 2nd placed team in the league of 8…and say they finished in the top 2 of this league…they would be in the super league …this would mean that the super league would have 3 scottish clubs provided celtic and rangers didn't finish in the bottom 2 (!) and the scottish domestic league would require 2 clubs from their division 1 to come up to create even numbers in the top domestic league …where this happens there would be a mechanism whereby a new club/franchise could be created in the lower leagues to keep the numbers even ….

Paradise

There’s a huge part of me would like to see Celtic remain in Scotland (which will probably happen anyway) and develop our own game. I know I maybe in the minority, are we just moving because we can’t sort out our own game?

I do not like anything that’s ‘closed’ – a closed group or superleague with no relegation etc does not appeal to me and in my humble opinion would just become an exhibition. You said yesterday about supporting your local team etc – all that would go with a superleague. Instead of rivalry with Aberdeen/Motherwell/Rangers it would be Basel meehhhh. What do you win, how do you develop and grow? If Celtic move – there will be no Scottish players coming through, not based on last nights Scotalnd U21’s showing anyway. It will be the elite only. If you think capitalism ruins the game just now, this is just as bad to me (or what I know of it)

UEFA and FIFA are 2 of THE most corrupt organisations in the World so quite appreciate Clubs wanting to break free but Juventus – corrupt free, really? Barcelona and Real Madrid – squeaky clean? I just dunno

The idea of the a cross between your idea Paradise and HB would possibly work, there has to be competition and the prize of competitions such a Champions League or it would stagnate. Although the 2 finalists in the Champions League this season were not Champions, another story for another day lol

Mrs E you make some very valid points

however

Celtic would still be scottish
there would still be a domestic league
there would still be domestic cups

Celtic could even have a B team in scottish domestic league until they get relegated out of the super league

this idea is about small countries with small populations having a chance of growing their respective wealths and having a better chance to compete with the bigger clubs

corruption will always be rife …always …but feyenoord, celtic, rangers, ajax, rosenborg and the like are dying a slow death with the gap getting every greater every year between the haves and the have nots ….

liverpool last year alone raked in £100m without european football and this figure doesn't include merchandise sales!

we cannot go on as we are

more penitently, even if attendances in our domestic matches improve, this will still have next to no effect on our financial robustness

spain, italy, germany and england won over the chinese, malaysians, indians and other mass markets in south east asia so their audiences will never be matched …that bird has flown so something needs to be done to create a competition for the also rans that involves an "pooled population" and subject to that competition creating the revenue streams to allow for better equipped squads and players, this could become a route to ever greater access to the TV and sponsorship riches that others benefit from

this idea about Financial Fair Play making it a level playing field is rather silly too. I heard that the naming rights of stadia has resulted in some clubs getting £100m yearly boosts, aided by the fact that the owners use their companies to name the stadiums (lost leader) just to escalate club revenues to meet the FFP criteria …it is a stitch up…people always find ways to wriggle between the rules and princes and sheikhs don't play fair if playing fair means not winning at everything

I think a Euroleague could defo work for the clubs + business side of things. Would be horrible for us fans though, even a western conference would still cost us a fortune. We would never be feasible to make even a game a month based on time off work or finances!

Unless they split it into 4 groups: North-West, South-West, North-East + South-East? Then again, we'd be in a pot made up of the UK, Ireland, Scandanavia + other Nordic (and/or Baltic) countries for the regular part of the season before taking on teams from other regions lol.

I suppose the thought of Man City, Cliftonville, TNS, St Pat's, Aalborg, Malmo, HJK, Stromsgodset, KR, HB, Levadia, Ventspils, etc sounds more appealing than Accies + Ross County!

Mrs E, your bottom point? Always high on my agenda lol. "Champions" League where Champions start in the Qualifiying Rounds but 2nd and 3rd place in some countries start off in the Group Stage?! UEFA started out with a relatively small amount of members in the 50s I'm sure it was? Back then you can understand why more than one club would represent a member, or why it was invitation only. In 2014, UEFA have 54 member nations. Why can they not have a "Champions League" made up purely of Champions?!

I'm just not a fan of closed groups eg. A Superleague or any form of elitism (is that a word). These big Clubs have grown over time to feel they are too big for their Country, which is fair enough but they kinda forget their old ar*e.

They forget their humble beginnings and that football was/still is a working class sport - what good is an away game to your ordinary fan in a foreign Country every 2nd week?

Celtic's attendances will be fine, they always are. Sure there is a bit of swings and roundabouts just now but I can't see it long term, we've been through much, much worse than this.

Paradise, I totally agree the financial ship has sailed. Real Madrid with an income of over 500m and you're right, we ain't going to be challenging that anytime soon.

The FFP is looking more like a farce to me. Agree with HB's point about Champions League, if UEFA etc wanted to make it an more level playing field then give 'Champions' a bigger cut of the cash - a couple of million to Cliftonville and you would soon see them grow. But no, the rich get richer and we all know the story!

@mrs e celtics attendance are not "fine". What about last season?

Mrs E

In your scenario (which I admit is more realistic than my own) where do Celtic go? Next year we will have away matches against the following clubs (with the likely following crowds)

dundee united (8000)
aberdeen (16000)
dundee (7000)
motherwell (7000)
ross county (3500)
hamilton (4000)
inverness (4000)
st mirren (6000)
kilmarnock (6500)
st johnstone (5000)
partick (7000)

we will likely have the league sewn up in March with a double digit gap at the end of winter

How do we sell that? Our own home games will attract a traveling fan base of (at most) 3000 from aberdeen and at worst case scenario 100 from inverness

It will be touch and go next year whether or not the aggregate attendances in the SPL (with 12 clubs) will be better than the Championship pooled attendances (weighted to take account of their only being 10 clubs)

this game needs a "material" level of shaking up

they used to worry about the idea of TV season tickets because it would see attendances drop …how much further would they need to drop to look at that as an option?

give us TV season tickets (more income) and bring the price of watching matches down too …that may be a viable mix where we get the crowds and more income

something needs to happen

if it is youth, then so be it, bring on the young players but invest in the top class coaches to make sure they have every prospect of developing

* worse case 30-50 from Hamilton, can you remember their travelling support to Parkhead? One of the "FtOF" mobs!

28 May 2014 21:49:47
I seen somewhere today that Dermot Desmond asked Neil Lennon to leave Celtic.

Any truth in this?

I think if it was amicable BB it wouldn't have happened until there was a new manager lined up or Lennon had something lined up. Why go through all this speculation if it was avoidable. Typical Celtic right enough.

28 May 2014 19:49:24
I feel this is taking to long to appoint a manager, we have champions league qualifiers coming up with no manager in place to strengthen the squad I think this might be 1 of the reasons why Lennon left being to no big signings will be made before knowing what European tournament we will be involved in, the board have been very short sighted since Seville and I can't see it changing anytime soon, there is a lot of work to be done over the next six weeks and no one to do it. I just don't understand why we have not appointed anybody yet it needs done now or again nothing will be done but players signing who no one else wants.

I agree with you %100 end of week at the latest

Wish it would be end of the week but can't see it, I think and hope I'm wrong it won't be until the World Cup starts and the board will sneak someone in like Coyle hope not but that's what I think will happen just got no faith at the moment

Tbh, I set a personal goal that I'd like to see a new manager appointed before the WC starts, which is two wks away today. That gives the new guy over a month to draw up scouting, coaching, training, tactics, etc.

I stick by that.

28 May 2014 17:23:06
Roy Keane now favourite for the job with some bookmakers. Do you think it could happen Ed? For me it would a decent appointment, not one to get really excited about like if it was Yakin, but not one to be disappointed in like if it was Coyle! Given how great a leader he was during his career you have to feel he'll crack it as a manager at some stage. The short period he's had working with Martin O'Neill will also have improved him I think

{Ed007's Note - Roy Keane is a hero/legend to me and my favourite ever sportsman LM, but I'm not so sure he would be a good manager for us. He's hardly set the heather alight so far as a manager but working with MON should have improved him as you say. He certainly wouldn't suffer fools at the club or in dealing with officialdom and the press. I'm really pushed to make a decision either way regards Keane, my complete adoration of the man would cloud my judgement :)

Would DD back Keane the way he backed MON? here £20 million get 3 or 4 players?

{Ed007's Note - Has Desmond perhaps asked MON for his opinion on who should become manager? I'd take MON's advice before I would take Lennon's.}

I think if he gets more experience then he could possibly be one of the best managers in football IMO.

I was thinking that too, he wouldn't take any nonsense from the board, players, press etc. I am sure he would do a good job trophy wise, its more the style of play he would adopt that doesn't excite me. I was hoping for a continental style that we'd get with the likes of Oscar Garcia

Ed MON did a great job for us but are u forgetting the state of the aging squad he left us with including an enormous contract for balde when it wasn't really justified?i felt towards the end MON let a down

{Ed007's Note - What's that got to do with anything? MON and DD are friends so why wouldn't he ask for his input, especially if Keane is being considered.}

Done nothing as a player at Celtic & a bad choice as manager . Think this is just a way to keep Irish contingent happy . Where was he in the poll you set up ed, clearly not fans choice I bet

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if Desmond asked O'Neil his thoughts - he should also of asked a few other top managers. It was Mourinho that recommended Pochettino to Southampton for eg, but I would always ask a few to try and get a consensus if you like, about the next up and coming coach/visionaries. Alex Ferguson, he used to just recommend his pals to clubs, and everyone would take it as gospel because of what he done in the game. I think that's why McLeish got so many jobs in England/Smith the Everton job etc. Anyway I'd be reasonably happy with Keane as long as he brings in a technical first team coach, even if it's someone he's never met. I doubt we'll pay 2 decent wages though, that would be far too normal. Keane with Stevie Clarke I think would be cracking, or a coach from south America/Spain, something with a bit of imagination and foresight!

{Ed007's Note - A Keane/Clarke partnership would work for me, Paul.}

We don't need anpther manager who has ZERO coaching experience. I know he was with Fergie but that doesn't automatically make him a good manager. I think we need someone who can develop the players, make them better, make them play better, be more composed on the ball, ability to break down teams. I would like to see Rene Muelenstein come in. He was Fergie's confidant for years, he is a top top coach and he would develop everything at the club, making it anti Scottish if you like. Please keep all these pretenders away from the club, Keane, Coyle, Mackay, Laudrup, Larsson. none of them has the right credentials or offers the right plan going forward. Another top coach is Stevie Clarke, worked at Chelsea and Liverpool and all the players say how good he is, maybe need a director of football for both appointments but would make sense, a top coach working with the players and an experienced man manager looking after the interests of the club and working with the playing side to make sure it is all coming together. Time for Celtic to be radical, set the standard now, we are at the top of our tree, let's plant anew one that nobody will get close to.

28 May 2014 16:36:52
I'm with ed that ma 1st choice would be murat yakin but we aw know that won't happen so going by who we are being linked with who would everyones top 5 be in order of who u would rather be the manager going by who we are linked with rather than who we want? for me it would be

1. Moyes
2. Rosler
3. Keane
4. Laurdrup
5. Coyle

Personally I don't want laurdrup or coyle anywhere near the job but gong with who is linked then I would put them ahead of henrik who is'nt ready yet imo. Rosler from what iv seen looks a good up n coming manager had brentford playing some cracking football and turned wigan round after coyle's shambles and moyes who a think can't really be judged after that season with man u

My choices would be
1 Lambert/Larsson
2 Malky
3 Clarke
4 Moyes
5 Coyle

It's still got to be Oscar Garcia for me.

Like some I think the new manager has been lined up for a while so I don't think it will be anyone who has recently left their club or who is still at a club. Based on this my preference would be
1. Steve Clarke
2. Malky Mackay
3. Giovanni Trapattoni
4. Roy Keane
5. Michael Laudrup

I wouldn't mind Oscar Garcia or Murat Yakin but I don't think it will happen.

What does Garcia have, I seen a write up about him and he was described as 'average'?

Mind this was only someone else's opinion. I just don't know enough about the guy at all

1-Thomas Tuchel
2-Rafa Benitez
3-Murat Yakin
4-Stevie Clarke as First team coach/Roy Keane as manager
5-Oscar Garcia as first team coach/Roy Keane as manager

1 Yakin 2 Garcia 3 MacKay 4 MacNamara 5 Keane. I'd like Clarke as a coach but not as manager.

1. Murat Yakin
2. Oscar Garcia
3. Malkay MacKay
4. Steve Clarke
5. Michael Laudrup

Agree with BigJohn but would switch Laudrup for Moyes

27 May 2014 22:44:32
I was sitting last night watching the news when my uncle (from up north and a big Shinty fan) asked me, what (at first appeared to be) a pretty simple question along the lines of "what is there to support nowadays when it comes to a football team".

before thinking I rushed in and spoke for what must have seemed like an eternity to him. We touched on Celtic in 67 and the player pool from a 30 mile radius etc and I thought I was doing well.

He then said "what is CELTIC exactly from a sporting perspective.who are they.why celtic .what is it about them.what do they have that few other clubs have .this was about the physical football team NOT the movement or the philosophy or personality of the club etc.or its "soul"

His point was that, when he watches his local Shinty team play a match, he is supporting the players (whom he knows) the village (where he is from) the wider locale etc IE the village to village or town to town or region to region rivalries are REAL with 100% passion and pride and you there is a clear and obvious "connection"

I thought about Celtic, and the 80s and 90s and 2000s and it is true that with every passing year it is difficult to work out exactly why we get so excited (I still do get exacerbated watching The Bhoys) but his query really made me think hard .

The Seville team stuck together. It was "built". Players weren't going anywhere. They were totally committed to being the best they could be with genuine aspirations to take on Europe's best. There is however, nowadays at least, a clear and obvious disconnect .playing for celtic is a STEPPING STONE .few "good and improving" players stop off at CP for terribly wrong .if they are half decent they are gone in a flash. and we start again

I don't support a balance sheet. I don't support financial mercenaries or at least I don't want to. Some of the managerial candidates are even being discussed in the context of their next move beyond Celtic and they haven't even been appointed yet, IE Moyes to build confidence prior to a top 6 job in the future in the EPL etc.

With players coming and going at an ever accelerating speed do you think ED that this does impact on the fans "connectivity" to the soul of the club. the fans ain't going anywhere and for some strange reason I feel that it is the fans I have more in common with than the players per se .am I alone in that thinking?

The days of idolising and championing 1 or 2 players seems to be over; they don't hang around for long enough! I know that we will never again see 11 Glaswegians or even Scotsman taking on Dundonians or an all england team. But I do like the notion (however romantic) of supporting a team that is made up of locals (even at a national level) and seeing them improve and buying in to a quid-pro-quo commitment (fan to player and player to fan)

ED, is football changing for the better or is the "fanatic" in the fan being eroded at the same rate as the player merry-go-round . is global transience and an unhealthy focus on the game's material benefits (IE money) ripping the very "soul" from our club?

Can you be fanatical about a club whose playing pool is forever changing?

I love being a celtic fan and I will always thank my lucky stars that my folks introduced me to the world as a Celtic fan but I would like to get back to the days when we are encouraged to get to know the players and trust in the players (and trust in their long term commitment)

{Ed007's Note - I definitely don't think football is changing for the better but I think CFC is, or at least should be, seen as a special case. I support the club and want to see the best for the club as a whole, regardless of who the personnel involved are. Sure I have favourite players like Scott Brown and Izaguirre but if they were to move on then I would find replacements. It's actually quite difficult to put into words when we all have opinions on who should be playing, sold or brought in, at the end of the day it's the team on the park, whoever the personnel are, that I support, I have seen some garbage on the park for CFC over the years but my love for the club has never waned.
You only need to look at how some fans felt about NL to see how intense the connection some supporters still feel/felt to the club, I only went off NL as time went on and I felt he was letting the club, the fans and himself, down. Look at the clamour for Larsson to be the next boss? There is no way he should be near the CFC job but fans would buy into it because of who he is and it would certainly help ST sales, but would it be the best move for the club, another rookie with practically zero noticeable experience?
Because of some of my opinions regarding the club I get all the nonsense about not being a 'real supporter' etc but my opinions are only what me personally feels we should do to improve the club on and off the field.
The people running our club, in my opinion, are trying to turn us into a clone of a soulless EPL club with consumers/customers rather than supporters filling the stadium.}

Hi Ed, I think you have indirectly nailed it; the point about customers (and not supporters) and balance sheets and what not! A business. Your poll about the "motivation" for the board's next appointment demonstrates that the fans KNOW the score and KNOW what to expect, IE the manger will be someone that costs little and not the RIGHT man to move Celtic forward

I wonder WHO on the board is responsible for the counter intuitive argument that deals with 'speculating to accumulate", the MANAGER is the MOST IMPORTANT piece of the jigsaw or, in my view, should be …

There was a connection with Lennon and I think he wanted the best for CFC so he was a good appointment who saw things as a "fan" would see things

I honestly feel that we are all going to be mighty disappointed with the next managerial appointment and I also think that there is the real possibility that the MALAISE in terms of fan turnout could continue

Thanks for answering the point ED

{Ed007's Note - No need to thank me.}

Best post I've read on here for a while paradisewon can't argue with eds reply .at end of the day we would all love 11 world beaters on the park playing week in week out but we also know it's the green n white hoops, the crest, paradise n history that keeps us in love with greatest football club there's ever been.,,,, just my opinion

The falkirkbhoy

you are correct, it is all about the history…the stories. the passing from old to young…the highlights…and the promise of better things to come …if there was a world cup for fans (and knowledge and fairness) we would be contenders but alas…we support a big club in a totally duff league with poor leadership in terms of the national sport…celtic are probably doing quite well under the circumstances just keeping their head above it all in terms of ECL qualification and managing to take rough diamonds, polish them up and move them on….it is the ONLY survival tactic at present

First sentance was poetic, Tammy Burns would be proud lol

28 May 2014 02:31:29
if we lose fraser this summer what would you think of pantillimon from city. seen he's out of contract and shouldn't be on great big wages but who knows with city

few english clubs looking at him but could they guarentee him first team football

Mat Ryan will go to the World Cup as Australia's No. 1 'keeper. If the board want a young, cheap option with a possible sell-on profit, he's your man. Currently at Club Brugge and will come away from Brazil with at least 3 WC ties under his belt. I can't think of a goalkeeper that fits more perfectly into the scouting requirements our club seems to work by.

What about Julian Speroni? he has yet to receive a contract offer from Crystal Palace and knows how big a club Celtic are from his time at Dundee.