Celtic Banter Archive July 22 2012

22 Jul 2012 21:53:45
I see Portsmouth are in danger of going into liquidation this week. Is there anyone that you bhoys and ghirls would take from them on the cheap? I see Husseklepp (spelling) plays for them, although I don't know much about him. Ed, any thoughts on this?

Ontario Bhoy

Husseklepp or whatever his name was had the chance so no thanks.

22 Jul 2012 03:56:07
hi ed 1st time post!get shot of murphy,he isn't celtic class,need to get the equivalent to hartson,lobo and 2 good centre backs!c'mon peter get the money out!

22 Jul 2012 16:58:23
If i was NL i would take a slight risk, spend loass of money expecting 15mill form cl, sell ki 7-8million, sell all dead wood 2-3million, there is 25mill spend 20of it.on a good summer! (profit of 5) get a good experienced centre half with a good young one too, get a good experienced striker amd a good young one aswell, i honestly think rabiu ibrahim is very capible of producing! give him games he would be good in behind 2 strikers!

I honestly think our best possible formation is a 3-5-2 have 2 very goodgood players with pace on each wide positions which are capible of knocking a ball by players and running in matthews forrest izzy and even sammy

You are on a different planet if you think we're gonna spend 20 mill this summer mate, also not lennons decision or risk to take to spend that cash, L1888

If only it was that simple! Sopot Celt

22 Jul 2012 15:54:37
The Scotsman today regarding the daft yin's latest fan appeasing statement:-

'McCoist's confused stance reflects the fallacies that have been regularly repeated during this saga. Rangers have not been heavily punished over their financial meltdown but suffered heavy consequences. The new club want to acquire the SFA membership of the old club and their history. They must therefore accept the sanctions imposed on them for the malfeasance of the Craig Whyte regime and the outcome arising from the SPL’s investigation into the improper registration of Rangers players, through their use of the Employee Benefit Trust scheme from 2001-2011. If an independent commission finds that Rangers systematically paid players outside of their contracts, then they would have broken stringent registration rules that, on the basis of all precedence, would void any results obtained with those players.'

Mrs E

Hi Mrs E.
I don't think AM is confused at all.
I think he knows exactly what he's doing.
You have to think about what Charles Green and co are trying to get RFC fans to buy into.
His statements have been all about RFC continuing and keeping the history.
I think Ally is sending the fans a message here.
He walked out of the final meeting because he could not stomach or support what was being proposed.
CG needs to be upfront with the fans about what exactly his plans are.
I suppose a good marker will be whether Ally is still the manager this time next week. If he goes or is pushed, then we can't trust Green. That's how i see things anyway.
P.O.B.

Hiya P.O.B.

What is your view then on a club, that if found guilty, has fielded possibly over 50 ineligible registered players ? Bearing in mind East Stirling were thrown out of a cup last year for fielding Michael Andrews (ineligible player) ?

Ally put all his faith in CW and don't start on how long he 'worked' for SDM, is he really the best judge ?

If he walks away, I would say its more the realisation of Div 3 football and all the big talk in the world won't help if Rangers fielded ineligible players.

These titles were not won be a huge margin, it was last game of the season stuff..a few points etc. A deliberate unfair advantage

Mrs E

Still think you're missing the point Mrs E.
It is not a case of Ally using "Big Talk".
Like i said before Charles Green is attempting to buy the fans loyalty with bold statements. Rangers means nothing to him.
Ally is simply doing what any true fan would do.
We need transparency from Mr Green.
Ally could simply not stomach what was being proposed.
We are in the 3rd division,SPL wanted us in div1. SPL clubs voted us out of their league.SFL did likewise with Div1.
Now they are all squabbling over our T.V. rights and attraction. Double standards?
Just leave us alone to get on with playing football.
Rangers have had harsher punishment with regard to what they had to lose. Livingstone,Dundee etc are not as big an organisation. Their overheads,staffing levels,wage structure,player contracts were all significantly less.They were at the bottom end of the league,and had not qualified for Europe. We should not be treated any differently rules are rules,but that does not diminish the argument that Rangers have in financial terms suffered more.
What should happen is that David Murray and Craig Whyte should be pursued for their actions,not the club which has been kicked into the bottom tier of Scottish football,as a direct result of their actions.
P.O.B. {Ed007's Note - Rangers have not been punished any differently from any team that has went into liquidation POB, Livingston and Dundee were never liquidated. Maybe you should look at Gretna for a better comparison, plus Rangers have not been 'kicked into' the bottom tier, if anything they have been fast-tracked into SFL3. Remember it's a brand new club mate, what league are Gretna 2008 playing in?}

POB...my original post was to do with Ally saying 'I will not be accepting any talk of stripping titles'

'That is something we will never accept and everyone at the club shares this view.'

So is he saying Charles Green shares this view ?

You haven't answer my question, what do you think should happen to a club that is found guilty of using duel contracts. David Murray 'bought' you 9-in-a-row and some fancy football, is he to be pursued for this action as well ? Mrs E

Hi Ed. See the point you're making but
Gretna was a different scenario.
Their "Sugar Daddy" unfortunately took ill.
Gretna were were placed in administration after Mileson withdrew his support due to illness. At the end of the season, all of the club's staff were made redundant and the club were initially relegated to the Third Division due to their inability to guarantee fulfilment of their forthcoming fixtures. After this demotion, the one remaining offer to buy the club was withdrawn.
The club resigned their place in the Scottish Football League in June and were formally liquidated soon after.
The financial structure and corporate attraction of RFC i would suggest was and is a tad more attractive to people like Charles Green than Gretna FC was.

The queston is what are C.G's plans?
This is why we need more transparency from him.
There are huge numbers of RFC fans waiting to hear about the licence before purchasing season tickets and ultimately committing to Mr Green.
He told us about three weeks ago that he would "answer all questions being asked of his consortium". Well he still hasn't done thay in my opinion.
Interesting also Ed that the footall creditors rule does not apply in Sotland yet RFC are having this forced upon them. Yes morally they should be paid,but RFC are having this rule enforced on them when it does not exist.
Of course it is the same financial and corporate structure attraction that is being levied against RFC as they are deemed to be more affluent,therefore more capable than Dundee or Livingstone of absorbing these sanctions.Is this assumption fair? How much money has CG invested,or indeed got? What if the SFA are flogging a dead horse?
As clumsy as John Brown's appearances were,i believe he has raised a valid point.
Who does own RFC's assets?
Anyone else who has reformed has not had the restrictions,sanctions,placed upon them. We are either Newco or Oldco,which is it to be?
P.O.B. {Ed007's Note - Any club that has been reformed have not been fast-tracked into the upper tiers of their respective leagues. You can compare the scenarios surrounding liquidation but at the end of the day it was still liquidation, no matter how Rangers or Gretna arrived there.}

You're asking me to speculate.
But to do this you have to define "Cheatng"
It's not as if we smuggled Lionel Messi or Ronaldo into Ibrox and sent them out to play wearing a wig's and moustache's.
Rangers paid transfer fees.
The players paid tax and NI on their salary.
The accountants at MIH allegedly never passed this on to HMRC.

Apparently RFC took legal and financial advice and incredibly this is not illegal!
There should have been no wriggle room for debate on this issue.
The rules should be there cast in stone.
The fact that there has been no precedent,and the length of time it has taken to conclude speaks volumes for the dubiety of the whole scenario.
IF Rangers eventually are found to be guilty of the charges then there may well be a case for stripping of trophies,if they were deemed to have been won unfairly. However boardroom jousts rarely have an affect on the pitch.
We have been removed from the SPL,denied entry into SFL div1,despite the SPL's chief exec wanting us there,(not us) and are in Div3.
Let us get on with rebuilding the football club,and let's have no talk about future stripping of titles when the outcome is not even known yet.
If you phone up about an item in the paper,and the owner says okay i'll give you the directions but you have to commit to buying the house or car before you view it would you agree?
Ally is simply saying that until the final outcome is known then there should be no talk of stripping of titles.
The reason for the meeting was to grant or exclude the transfer of membership.
Either grant it on merit,or deny it on principle.
David Murray should be held accountable along with Craig Whyte. I personally hope that both of them are hunted down for what they did to our once proud club.
It's a travesty,and in my opinion the crime of the century.
Imagine Mrs E if this had happened to Celtic. How would you feel? And what would you want for the perpetrators?
P.O.B. {Ed007's Note - You are asking Mrs E to speculate POB. It's not as if CFC have done anything wrong. Not paying tax to HMRC is illegal BTW. How do you feel about the RFFF money being used to take legal action about the transfer embargo but now it looks as if Sevco will accept? If they had done this at the time perhaps things would be a bit further forward. Where is the remaining money from the RFFF and what is intended for it, do you think the legal action was a waste of the fan's money?}

Of course you are right Ed.
No other club has been "fastracked" into the SFL, but is that CG's,RFC or A.Mc's fault?
Everyone said we should just suck it up and go to Div3. Well we're there now,or so we thought.Two weeks ago everyone was saying thank god it's done let's get back to playing football.Yet look where we are. A five way tussle for a team playing in Division 3. It's rediculous.
P.O.B. {Ed007's Note - No it's not any of their fault, it is the governing bodies fault for not following their rules and for bending over backwards to accommodate Sevco in the league structure. Far from sucking it up and going to SFL3 I think Sevco have been very lucky when you consider they don't even meet the criteria for a new club entering the league.}

POB, u say in your two different points above mate that rangers were "removed" & "voted out" of SPL, this is not true, the club died effectively didn't exist for a short period of time so there was no vote "out" the Spl clubs voted against an application from the new rangers to get back in as did sfl clubs with the Div 1 situation. I don't know why people ( The rangers fans) can't get their head round this! L1888

Oooft! You change the subject quicker than my partner Ed lol.

I was asking Mrs E to imagine what it would mean to her if her beloved club were in our position.
I was only asking Mrs E to be subjective.
I am well aware Celtic haven't done anythng wrong.

I don't think anyone knows what's going on with the RFFF and the money to be honest Ed.
However i do believe it is being managed by Oldco. I could be wrong.

Regarding the court case.
If something is wrong or unjust then it should be challenged,that's what our elders fought for and why we enjoy the benefits of living in a democratic country.
CG now grudgingly accepting it as a condition of licence being granted.

The question for me is simple Ed.
Are we being allowed to continue as RFC?
Same club,same badge,crest history etc.
Or are we being asked to accept punishment's for the Oldco's crimes,as a Newco?
For me if continuation of Rangers football club is being mooted,then let's have it out in the open. Likewise if it is not.
There could be a case made for the former by the transfer of membership and the attached conditions.

Assuming that this is the case.
I would accept the conditions being levied by the SFA once the decsion s final. It should not be made now as a future punitive measure. You have to ask why the SFA are asking for this.
How successful would a future legal trial be?
This is why we need transparency from Green.
You would think this would be something to put to the Rangers supporters.

I for one would accept losing a few of our titles if it meant a continuation of our club in it's present form.
But what is the situation,that's the trouble no one seems to know.
Or do they?
P.O.B. {Ed007's Note - I need to change the subject quickly with you POB, it will help you to decide the parts you will answer and what parts you will avoid ;-) Are you now saying that something 'illegal' shouldn't be deemed so if after a while you realise it was for your benefit? You were all shouting from the rooftops that the embargo was 'illegal' but now CG grudgingly accepts it, if it is illegal why not challenge? I am sure Sevco fans wouldn't mind chipping in to pay for it, as you yourself says:

"If something is wrong or unjust then it should be challenged,that's what our elders fought for and why we enjoy the benefits of living in a democratic country."

One definition of 'cheating' is to violate rules or regulations P.O.B.

There is alleged evidence that at least 45 Rangers players and staff had side letters (contracts) promising them extra payments through the clubs EBT scheme. This kind of arrangement contravenes SPL and SFA registration rules. This topped up their salaries and was tax-free !

It dragged on through the actions of Rangers unwillingness to co-operate as well. Then when the documents requested were eventually passed over, it was decided there was a case to answer.

Feel free to speculate but if found guilty, what do you think should happen P.O.B. ~ Mrs E

Okay mate i'll take that one on the chin on a technicality. I was trying to avoid using demotion /relegation.
I initially thought that we had been considered as deceased L1888.
Now i'm starting to wonder what the hell is going on.
Are we being allowed to continue as RFC?
Is this the reason for all these latest shenanigans that are bursting everybody's head?
Make a decision SFA one way or the other.
P.O.B.

Okay Ed.
You got me confused.
While appreciaitng that you have to edit the site, and therefore don't have a lot of time between posts,you are nonetheless being unreasonable.
What parts have i failed to answer. I have done my best to answer all of the points.
Regarding the "Illegal" point you made.
I have not said anything remotely like that. You asked me to comment on the court case, i did. I think you will also find it was D&P who challenged it not Charles Green. Therfore your argument is void.
P.O.B. {Ed007's Note - Have you bought your season ticket for Sevco? Tim asked you that days ago if you intended to and you never answered, you constantly avoid people's straightforward questions with things like 'You are missing the point.....' and go on to question other people without answering what you have been directly asked. You have admitted that Sevco have been fast tracked into SFL3 and then say that that they have accepted a punishment that was deemed 'illegal', if it was illegal then, why not challenge it now? It does not make the argument void, I am asking you straight out.

Have you or do you intend to buy a Sevco season ticket?

Did you donate to the RFFF?

If so, are you happy that your money was used to fight a legal battle against a punishment that you/Sevco fans are now willing to accept?

Why should Sevco accept an 'illegal' punishment now, is it just to gain a licence?

There are four straight questions, the first three of them can be answered with a simple yes or no................}

P.O.B...I don't know how I would feel to be honest and hope to never find out. There's zero chance of Celtic's books not being in order and you know that.

I can't believe any Rangers fan 'wants' 3rd Div football.

My point about the 'big talk' does fivers and tenners ring a bell ? Its now one of the biggest football jokes...in more ways than one.

The NewCo are requesting the transfer of the OldCo's registration, that's why sanctions are being considered otherwise you need 3yrs accounts (Ed is this right?) Mrs E {Ed007's Note - Yes.}

It's certainly gonna be an interesting week regarding even things like what strip, crest etc the team are allowed to wear, what's yet thoughts on that POB? I hear the shops are selling the strip just released 7 weeks ago at half price? Reading between lines they must know they're gonna have to get rid of it. I'm not trying to take the piss here mate I'm just asking as you as a rangers man might know more, cheers L1888

You're keeping me busy tonight guys.lol
A case to answer Mrs E isn't really proof of any wrong doing as such.
Rangers have not denied using EBT's,apparently the doubt surrounds the way they were implemented. If it is decided that they blatantly went out of their way to abuse the system then sanctions should be applied. The thing about this is that the panel does not convene until after the season starts which is rediculous.
The other thing being,did it really make that much difference overall. Seventy million is the figure being mooted over a ten yrar period. Seven million a year.
That's only a Ki, or Gary Caldwell and S Mcmanus. Doubt that would have made that much difference. lol
P.O.B.

POB...its not abusing the system, its against the SPL and SFA registration rules. Black and white, no grey area. Mrs E

Incorrect Ed.
I have replied to Tim's question regarding season tickets on three or four occasions since the 1st July at 10:25.
The fact that Tim never seen them or chose not to reply is hardly my concern. But i have replied several times.

Q1. Yes. Called ticket office last week,would/could not take payments-no licence.
Q2. Yes..£25 quid.
Q3. Yes. The conditions were straightforward as deemed fit by the fund manager. They also asked the fans if it was okay.
Q4. Already covered that in previous post. That is why i'm wary of Green,and backing the manager.

Just for the record the transfer ban was deemed illegal,so why should we accept it?
If they want us out put us out. If they want us in put us in.
If you're going to come back at me Ed at least try and keep up.
P.O.B.

P.O.B. {Ed007's Note -

1. They still don't have a licence, did you phone up today?

2. £25, no comment I don't know your circumstances.

3. How did they ask the fans? Can you produce the document you got asking you if it was ok?

4. The manager backed Craig Whyte. Why trust him over someone you really know nothing about (Green) and someone who has played a part in your old club's downfall and backed Craig Whyte (McCoist)?

You're rambling now Ed.
Have a wee lie down.
P.O.B. {Ed007's Note - Well avoided POB, or maybe 'I missed your point'? I will hazard a guess at your answers.

1. No I didn't phone today and can't think of a good excuse for not phoning today to buy one, even though we still don't have a licence (which is what was stopping me anyway).

2. I expected ridiculed for only donating £25 but you didn't bite and I know deep down I could have afforded more for a club I loved but I didn't.

3. Although I donated, albeit only £25, I don't know how they asked the fans but I read it somewhere. Nobody asked me.

4. Because it's Super Ally and he would never lie to 'Ra Peepul'...would he?

Oh you're an old cynic,so you are.

Interesting wee insight into your psyche though Ed.
First of all there was no need to phone again,as there haD been no news regarding the licence being granted.
I phoned last week because a decision was expected later that day. okay?

Number 2. Regarding the amount. Consider this,if every Bear worldwide donated half of my donation we would have raised a significant amount.
I have no influence over how others spend their money.

3. Nobody asked me directly, i never claimed otherwise.
The RFFF have regular meetings attended by various representatives from different supporters groups such as RST,Rangers Vanguard, Rangers standard,
and others,including shareholders.
They are representative of the fans. Such meetings are minuted and fans input is sought via various websites by E-mail.There are also straw polls taken during or after the meetings.
This how the fans opinions are gauged. Quite simple really no great conundrum.

Your final point regarding "Super Ally"
For the avoidance of doubt.
You constantly refer to AM in derogative terms.
Can i just state for the record that Ally has stood up against CG and Sevco.
He told them he was not happy with proposals and the fans would not be happy.It is on record,and Ally's position was in jeapordy a few months back. He said that we should not buy ST's,and added that he did not trust Sevco as he did not know enough about them.
This is hardly brown nosing CG,nor pandering to the fans.
He has subsequently,indeed only last Friday,mantained his stance as pandering to nobody. IMO he is to applauded for that consistency. You think he's fly and sneaky. Why hasn't NL came out and enlightened us to what was said in "Whispergate"?
Is it possible that Mr Lennon overreacted?
Surely not,that's not in his make up is it?
As for your other jibe about CW.
Ally wasn't the only one taken in by him.We all were.
Hindsight is indeed a wonderful thing Ed.
P.O.B. {Ed007's Note - No POB, not all of us were taken in by CW, but remember it was all one big 'Timmy' conspiracy after all.....wasn't it?}

NL does not have a habit of over-reacting when we have just won a game as most Rangers fans point out. Why hasn't AM said what it was, he's not usually this quiet ? How may Rangers players were sent off in that 'shame game' ?

Sevco as you call them are AM's employers and allegedly own some of OldCo's assets..what's not to trust lol. Did you boycott the BBC after the CW programme when you were more than well warned, not to mention Hugh Adam's warning a decade ago. Dear oh dear really, how many warnings do bears need ? Mrs E

22 Jul 2012 13:24:19
dear ed. i was just thinking,rather than P.L buying in the transfer window.do you not think he should just phone up the real madrid president and barcelona,s and make them an offer to buy thier history and that would make us the most succesful football club in the world,and the tv rights in documenteries and sponsorships plus the selling of merchandise would make us a very wealthy club.so you see no more tranfer buying just buy everyones history.EASY EH?

22 Jul 2012 13:30:52
was last nights abysmal effort a cunning ploy by neil lennon to get the board to get some players signed i really hope so

bigD

Dont know about that but my complaint is about the new away black strip. Its truly awful. I wish whoever chooses the kit remembers that GLASGOWS GREEN AND WHITE.... JK

JK......I think they timed the black kit perfectly to reflect how one half of the city is mourning,my worry is it turns out to be another unlucky away kit just like the last bumblebee.

Jungle Bhoy.

24 Jul 2012 18:05:30
at V-Bhoy,

1. Neil Lennon hasn't revealed what AM whispered..Why? He's had plenty to say about everything else in Scottish football over the last two years.
2. AM is our manager a supporter and an RFC legend,he is doing what any supporter would sticking up for his club.
This may i add is what makes NL so endearing to the Celtic support,is it not?
On a scale of 1-10 where would you compare AM's behaviour against your manager's antics of running onto pitches at full time confronting referees,and the "Ref-gate" incident the season before that?
3. Why should RFC be punished or sanctioned for oldco's crimes,if we are indeed a Newco?
We have accepted our fate and went to the 3rd division. Yet we are being pursued further? Pursue Oldco,prosecute David Murray,and Craig Whyte. Leave Ally and the new board alone to get on with the rebuilding.
4. You do not need three years accounts.

5. As to the consequences/punishment argument.
Denying a privilege because a responsibility or commitment is not fulfilled is a punishment.

Denying a privilege until a responsibility or commitment is addressed and holding the individual accountable to fulfill
their commitments and responsibilities is a consequence.
Apart from above GJ's post is bang on the money.
P.O.B.

22 Jul 2012 11:07:45
everyone should not get too down about the recent performances and results, there's a cuple of games to play before it matters. Fitness will be improved then, the sharpness will follow. I reckon we will strengthen the team, probably last minute loan deals. That would be why its quiet on grind transfer front. So cheer up and be glad you are a Celtic supporter.
Our noisy neighbours would love to be in our shoes. Last season they could watch in 3D, now its D3.
We are Celtic supporters, faithful through and through. 125 years and still going strong.
Des :-D

Our noisy neighbours would love to be in our shoes. Last season they could watch in 3D, now its D3.
We are Celtic supporters, faithful through and through. 125 years and still going strong.
Des :-D

Mate, D3 is Nirvana compared to being stuck following your mob! By the way, with jokes THAT old I assume it's Mr O'Conner on the keyboard...?

BB

22 Jul 2012 08:47:41
I can understand that maybe we dont want to buy until we know if we are in the cl groups but what i dont understand is lenny tells us that hes looking for a centre half, he releases two out and out centre halfs and trys filling the gap with a midfielder and left back as makeshift centre halfs. I just cant get my head around the fact that cl or no cl we are desperate for a good solid centre half maybe even two. Surely spending 4-5 m on 2 players isnt going to break the bank.

Robbhoy

22 Jul 2012 00:31:30
Atrocious tonight. What was Mulgrew thinking? Still rather get pumped in meaningless games. I think Nl and PL know the players we have should win the league in a canter so no need for new players if we're not in CL. Kinda makes sense to me, sorry!
Tam the Tim

Its not the result..its the realisation yet again about the SPL. But hey ho, it could be worse, you could be a 'team' the wants to 'we'll be back from the 3rd div' to show the SPL who the boss is !! Now, there's ambition for you. x

22 Jul 2012 00:16:14
terrible result!but its early days,at least we know we are playing this year! bi67