22 Dec 2014 19:21:14
Football is a game we all love and have many many differing opinions on (that's why we love it). Its been going for more than a hundred years and in all that time there has been many types of systems. 4-4-2, 3-5-2, 2-3-5, 4-2-3-1, etc god even some person tried a 6-4 lol. But if you were to ask all the strikers of the last hundred years or so if they wanted to play up front on their own or have a partner I bet most would want a partner, why not listen to them. Very few strikers can play really effectively on their own. All if not most of the greats had someone to help them, even the great Henrik had a partner. This is not a dig at Rd as some would think just a general thought on football. Not all teams will have the capabilities of Bayern (robben, ribery etc).Barca (Messi, neymar, Suarez).There is always this thought of you must copy what the best do, yeah maybe in some sports but not necessarily football as for me it might be better to copy the next level as we just cannot reach that level in this current climate.
Ray mate, do you not think that there is a reason that 99% of top level managers don't play twin strikers? Are they all wrong? I personally wish people would stop wasting there time requesting it as it won't happen. And other than maybe the local Sunday league your unlikely to see it in the modern game. I'm more concerned about other things like our awfull defending and poor finishing, if both of these were improved we would be winning games comfortably and people would be delighted with a 4-2-3-1 formation. Markie
The infamous 4-6-0 what a genius Levein was haha!
Maybe I'm wrong, but think Petr Houston was Leveins's assistant manager, and I'm sure I heard him after the Czech game'taking the after match interview, cause I presume Levein could'nt face it, Houston said something like " one day all teams will play this formation ", I did'nt understand Leveins formation and I don't understand why any manager plays one up front, what does it mean?, you leave someone al la jimmy greaves, only that he keeps onside, I would play Griffiths and Scevovic(spelling), play Guidetti in the
young team, if he needs to gain fitness, then mix and match them all till you find the best pairing
Markie doesn't LVG at Manchester United play 2 up top that's just off the top off my head I sure there are many many more. my point was its more about fashion because some of the top managers do it. I bet in 5-10 yrs there will be another system.The whole point here is to score more goals you need more goalscorers in your team.
Why stop at 2 strikers. may as well just chuck em all on because then we will score more goals.
scoring goals is about taking chances, not how many strikers you play. Our current issue is converting chances and also defensive mistakes.
playing two up front can work but not with two wingers in modern day football. it seems that the best system for 2 strikers these days is a diamond in midfield, like liverpool last year when saurez/sturridge played. but that means you need four central players and the width comes from the full backs. It also lends itself to a counter attacking team which isn't much good in the spl.
i do like our formation but for me we need a new strong CB or a proper DM that can sit in with VVD and ambrose when the full backs push forward. I also think stokes playing wide left is such an issue as he is not a constant threat, ever and has no pace.
saying that I would have no issue playing 2 upfront but i'm not sure how to set up the rest of the team? brown can't play DM and none of our wide players are capable of playing anywhere apart from on the wing.
{Ed007's Note - Have a mess around with our 'Team Creator App' here:
www.celticrumours.co.uk/formations
I'm using my tablet so I can't (don't know how to) put an auto-link up for it.}
We need a couple of powerful players too when games get scrappy we miss Wanyama in that sense although Biton is a good player he doesn't have similar strength of Wanyama. We have very few in the team it is a little lightweight especially in midfield and upfront and no matter what formation we play the defenders roles will always be the same as we play 4 at the back too many times our defenders are switching off they're all to blame as a unit for the cheap goals we are conceding with 2 holding midfielders that shouldn't be happening either they're meant to provide cover
I thought he played the same as us mate. 4-2-3-1. Van Persey up front himself with Rooney in behind him in the middle of the 3? I personally think this system is better and also more attacking. 2 sitting defensive midfielders protecting the back 4 and basically 4 attacking players. The good old fashioned 4-4-2 would scare the life out of me at the moment as we don't have the quality we once had in midfield. All our opponents in Scotland play with 1 striker and 5 in midfield. If we went 4 against 5 against say Dundee unt who we played at the weekend, we would be lucky to have any of the ball to create any chances for our front 2. When Mon played 2 up top he played a lot of the time with three at the back, and he could when the back 3 was so good (now it isn't) and sometimes we could play 4 against 5 in midfield but then we had lamberts, lennons, petrovs, thomsons, to choose from. We simply haven't got the quality of player to play 4 against 5 in midfield against anyone in the SPL and that is the sad truth of where we are now in my opinion. Markie
23 Dec 2014 20:41:08
He played Van Persie and Falcao with Rooney as 10 last game. He played diamond 4-4-2 before Rafael and Shaw got injured so he had to switch to 5 back line. I think he can play two up front cause Rooney's deffencive workload. I think eventually he wants to play 4-3-3 or a 4-1-3-2 or 4-1-4-1 all depending.
Formation has a lot to do with the players and their strenght. that's what Deila is aiming at to I think, having player that can move around all around the midfield.
@Norwegianred, its a very good point about playing to players strength. Is Rd playing to Guidetti strength playing him on his own? Don't think so. Does stokes enjoy playing on the left? Defo not.Is Johansson being asked to do too much as he seems to run out of steam 2nd half.Does Mcgregor/Griffiths like playing on the right? Prob not.Does the defence like being this exposed every game? Defo not.Can we find a role for a 32 goal machine last season and our most creative player? No.I personally would like to see 2 strikers but it doesn't seem it will happen. But is Rd playing to our current sqauds strength? Absolutely not. Nothing wrong with the system as such but we don't have the players to play it.Just look at Liverpool last season with the right players they were awesome. This season they don't have those type of players and they now very poor.
I don't think anyone should have expected Ronnie to have everything perfect after a few months . There are two equally valid ways of setting up a team . Playing a formation that suits the players best, or working with the existing squad and bringing in additional players to suit the formation favoured by the manager . Ronnie is going to match the achievements of his predecessor no matter which way he goes about it . However we will know in2/3 years if Ronnie's formation and style of attacking and pressing football has worked, and it will take that amount of time .
24 Dec 2014 13:49:12
Completly agree with you Rayman, and I think he sees where the problems are. Thing is, when you come into a new club you want the players to get you philosophy. He had some of the same issues at Strømsgodset the first season.
Should he try to use another philosophy he is not used to himself, or try to fit the players that's allready there to his systems?
Its a difficult dilemma actually, if the team fits him or the other way around.
Also remember in Strømsgodset that the defence was something that didn't work propperly in the start. Think he would need two more windows to set his team.
Sorry chris it should never ever take a manager 2/3 yrs just to change a system.He is not changing the face of football here its merely asking players to play in a slightly different position. And they not exactly having to do it against top quality opposition.If it takes that long might I suggest he not the manager for us.
{Ed007's Note - It took Neil Lennon over 2 years to win the league.}
Good point ed, I no history buff but was that same amount of time it took Jock Stein. Anyway merry xmas to 1 and all esp our great ed who has to put up wi us all esp some of the dross I post lol.
{Ed007's Note - Merry Christmas buddy, have a great day.}
Rayman, what I am saying is that this season and next season we will win the league and will have other success domestically . If Deila is really going to turn Celtic around to a powerful offensive European force, I for one, would be prepared to give two or three years . Our options are to meander along as we have for the last 15 years having the odd surprising defensive based success or take a few seasons to have a team that can attack and beat the best of them, not once every three season. That's what I want and think Deila will achieve . Is there anything wrong with that?
@Chris no mate nothing wrong with that, but its cloud cuckoo land if you think we can compete with the top European clubs. Finance dictates this. Just look at Basle for Eg or Ajax they have much better set ups and youngsters than e do and they been doing it longer and can't get near them. My biggest fear is that it takes this long as you say just to get back to the starting point of winning league easy and making CL with a last 16 now and again.I don't mind taking a backward step to go 2 forward but the next step is last 8 and cups (cups always achievable anyway) and I as optimistic as anyone but I think last 8 is a bridge too far unless something changes in Europe but I can't see that happenin.
Rayman, happy Christmas, what I am trying to say is that, we are not going back anywhere . We are still winning the leagues and will win probably win domestic cups as well. I am not saying that we will get to the last 8 of any European Competition but what I am saying is that we will be able to play an attacking game in Europe and won't be relying on two rows of four or some other type of deep defence . Getting to the last 16 is something we have achieved before . I am not saying we will but surely if we are lucky to meet the right opponents and things go well for us we can make the last 8. It's a target, it's neither a foregone conclusion nor is it cloud cuckoo land thinking to say we won't achieve last 8
Merry xmas chris, surely by not making CL we have gone backwards.We cannot judge ourselves on domestic levels as the opposition is poor.We will always win cups / league etc there is no challenge. Our challenge is CL not forgetting the finance that helps us buy better players.Losing to the likes of legia and Maribor does not help us move forward.At the moment we are no where near good enough to go attacking in Europe that's just madness, soz mate its just too easy to say we will do this we will do that. We can only talk about the here and now as managers are lucky if they get 2/3 years at any job now.They need to spend as much a poss because if they don't the next guy will do it.
Rayman, I never thought improving the team was solely done by spending as much as possible . If that is the case we might as well give up now because there are approximately 200 clubs in Europe who can spend more than us . In my opinion I judge a manager on how much better the team is rather than the sum of the players .
To say we have gone backwards because we are not in the champions League this season, is looking very short term . If Deila is going to be successful it will take him 3 years or more to change the mindset, fitness and team- work of the players as well as improving the existing and new players . Deila is not an ex Epl manager who was out of work and available because he had failed . Deila is a young manager who has studied the best in Europe and is surrounding himself with top-class experts in several areas to help him attain his goals .
Sorry chris we cannot wait 3 yrs to see if we improve. Improve to what? CL winners? No chance. Semis? No chance. Spending will not do it alone but knocking at the door each year and keeping our co- efficient will.What if we don't make CL next 2/3 yrs and become a lot better but we so far off Qualifiers and we get a top European team like we did with Arsenal a few yrs back. Even though we improved we stiil can't qualify.Isnt it better to stay in it with the money it produces and helps bring players to us. The more chances we have the better opportunities we have of making this lst 8 you crave. We just simply cannot afford to be out of the running to qualify for that long.
I don't understand your point that we just cannot afford to be out of Champions league so long . I don't think many at Celtic don't expect us not to qualify next season and most seasons in the future . By the way not qualifying for Champions League does not necessary reduce the number of co- efficiency points as a decent run in Europa League can produce more pointss than an average run in the Champions League .
By the way Rayman, I don't crave a last 8 place in the Champions League, it's just that it seems to me to be a legitimate target for Celtic to achieve having got last 16, I think 3 times in less than 10 years.
My point here is chris that you have already got the team heading for a last 8 when we not in the CL. Our only target is to get in. Last 8/16 is a pipedream at the moment.lets just focus on where we are and stop talkin about what we might do. Its going to get tougher to get in with more qualifiers than ever. Whilst I not pessimistic again you talking about Europa league runs let's get past Inter 1st and that is no easy task as they will be heavy favourites.