21 Feb 2014 21:07:10
Seen quite a few aggressive posts recently over one opinion or another mainly about poor performances in the Cup competitions and Champions League this season. From poor tactics, management, favourites, the Board and Celtic not thinking like a big Club.
All the day long Celtic are a big Club with a worldwide fanbase and brand, they would be competitive in any league. However we don't play in any league, we play in one that has all the appeal of paper cut with an income to match.
Real Madrid recently generated more than 500m and Barcelona are not far at their back. Where are we going to get anywhere near that kind of income? I know there will be a few that will mention their debt but under accounting measures that English Clubs use to calculate their own debt - Real Madrid's debt is less than Arsenal and Man Utd's.
Some of our fans moan about the PLC and forgetting our charitable roots - Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern et all aggressively pursue all sources of income and hawk their brand everywhere so they can play wages enough to feed a 3rd world Country and dominate. Charitable and moral?
Friendlies - Real Madrid reported a 9% increase in their profits was mainly down to playing in friendlies all over the world. Who moans about Celtic being in friendlies and them being pointless?
Youth - Germany, Spain, France, England their national teams from school age up all have a following and an interest. Maybe due to genuine talent and worth watching etc but if I asked most who Billy Stark named in his last Scotland U21 squad a good few would struggle and say they had no interest?
This season has been a huge anti climax (still the best in Scotland though!) with the Cup competitions and the lack of effort put in by the management and players and not having an income the size of Real Madrid is no excuses for that.
I do think its time to freshen things up at Celtic, other than the Champions League last season - which the team and Manager received full and deserved credit for, we've not had much considering lack of competition on the domestic front.
I would like to see Celtic come up with something more sustainable where we can spend a bit more on players, a mixture of youth and experience but I don't have the answers. Any ideas welcome
@mrs E, I've never felt being a football club and a plc was compatible. The board and CEO have a primary responsibility to act in the best interests of the shareholders! In celtics case the holders of the shares which attract a dividend. I think the Barcelona model where the supporters are members and own the club seems to work well. There seems to be a growing conflict of opinion at Celtic between the board, how they think the club needs to be run, and how many fans feel it should be. The club is very well run within the plc regulation within which it needs to operate but if all the support felt they had an actual equal interest in the club the relationship between the two would feel less distant.
The major factor as far as the income gap is concerned is clearly TV revenue. The population of Scotland obviously is very small relative to Spain etc. unfortunately TV money is controlled by the league rather than individual clubs. If Celtic had control over its own tv rights globally I'm certain we would be far more wealthy but would have to ensure that the incomes of all the the other clubs in the league grew as well to prevent the league becoming even more one sided. It would give us more firepower financially to purchase and pay players but as Man city found out on Tuesday . 0.5 billion quid doesn't guarantee you anything. The board are right to live within our means with minimal debt. Even if we became a member owned club with control of our global tv rights and a turnover of say 200m that should stay the same.
Unless there is a uefa led levelling of the playing field ( not likely), or a club led breakaway from uefa's corrupt self serving administration we will continue to see a few super clubs become mega clubs and the whole thing will die of boredom. The rest will fight it out for the money the last 16 brings and the last 8 will become even more of a foregone conclusion than it nearly is now.
The non involvement of some of our promising young players is baffling. Hopefully a few will get a chance before the season is out but will they be given the chance, along with those out on loan, at the start of next season when games have to be won to reach the CL and win the league again? It would be interesting to see a different managers team selection based on a week watching all our players training and nothing else. Could we play a 2nd team in the league of Ireland?
Anti climaxes are created by great things that went before them, that could very well be reversed next season.
Cheers
Have you been at the cooking sherry Mrs E?
@ 2 - I think you're right about the business side being at odds with the football and fans but unfortunately with the millions/billions involved seems a necessary evil. This is the figures made recently in broadcasting over Spain, Italy, England, Germany and France
Real Madrid 188.3m
Barca 188.2m
Bayern 107m
Man Utd 101.6m
PSG 90.9m
Juventus 166m
As you have pointed out, money does not necessarily bring success with Real Madrid not winning the Champions League since Glasgow 2002.
Our healthy financial position recently is heavily reliant on Champions League football and the sale of players, how can we keep this up? Champions League is achievable but players like Wanyama are not.
Totally agree with you regarding population being a huge factor - Germany 80m, Spain 47m, Scotland 5m. Fan ownership does seem to be attracting a lot of talk (think the sugar daddy suits some Clubs). How much of a vote and say do you really get though? I was reading Barcelona has approx 220,000 owners - all fans.
We all know football is fickle and can all change in one season, just been disappointing with the Scottish and League Cup especially as it was 2 home games.
Che - I've told you before, I don't want any of your sherry ta.
@mrsE, sorry I didn't tag my post, I thought it was automatic.
The tv revenue numbers are frightening in terms of how uneven our playing field is. They also show how well the club does normally to compete when we play the richest clubs, this season was really the first humbling we have been given in a CL group. There may be some hope in Bt sports willingness to challenge ssn domination of uk football head on. The next spfl contract will hopefully be more lucrative but still sadly loose change when compared with the numbers you have quoted. I believe CL money for Scotland's representative will increase greatly when BT start showing it. It's all down to product which I think is, sometimes, made out to be far worse than it actually is and audience I guess.I see plenty very poor Epl games for which poorer sides than ours are paid vast sums. What isn't in doubt is the global audience for our games. The league don't maximise that for me and it would benefit all the spfl clubs if they did. When Nakamura was at Celtic the revenue from our games being shown in Japan was split 12 ways. The tail wagging the dog! We should have control over our non domestic tv revenue with a payment made to the opposition? There is a better way somewhere although I'm sure the club will have tried many ways to improve our revenue.
It's hard to believe that there used to be a huge waiting list for season tickets. The Barcelona figures are interesting. Do you think having perhaps 150,000 members who pay £100 a year for the privelage and a guarenteed number of tickets per season at say £25 would work? These are top of my head numbers! The first difference would be increased revenue I think. Fans would take up their tickets and go not knowing where their next game was coming from. Secondly the stadium would be full far more often. Any spare tickets sold off. Too many people have been priced out of going to games and something needs to change to bring them back.
The current dependance on CL money and player sales is all the club can do at the moment. I hate seeing good players sold but bosman made it necessary. Seeing players run down contracts and walk away is worse. The club have no choice but to sell sadly.
andybhoy
{Ed007's Note - I know you must have been logged-in Andy for your post to reach me. I've asked them to have a look at why people are getting logged out when they are writing long posts and hopefully it will be sorted soon.}
@ Andy Like him or not, Peter Lawwell does have a reputation as a tough negoiator and you don't get to where he is without being ruthless. Could be Celtic are not willing to take the risks of trying anything other than how they make money just now. Seems the only way to substantially increase our income, is to move leagues.
I don't know an awful lot about fan ownership but you can see its definitely being talked about.
There seems to be pros and cons of fan ownership, Barcelona and Real Madrid fans only get to make decisions on anything big. You don't get to pick the team (can you imagine lol) I was reading it was a Barca fan that forced their President out over the 'hidden' extras in Neymar's contract, obviously more has come out.
It's just an absolute scunner the money involved now and it's anything but a level playing field.
I was getting logged out too but it was only happening on our iPad for some reason.
@mrs E, I'm on an iPad too!
I think moving to a newly created league might be more likely. Lots of clubs outwith Spain Germany England and Italy with the exception of psg must feel that they are in the same boat as we are, many of them will earn much more in tv money than Celtic do domestically.
I don't know much either about how fan ownership works but having a vote on who runs the club is more than a season ticket gives you now. The vast majority of shareholders votes are irrelevant as well if the big players all agree on something. It would enable all the clubs profit to stay in the club though and not disappear in dividends.
On peter lawwell he runs a very tight ship for certain and has done some terrific deals for the club. Maybe we are too far down the plc road for it to change now but he does have stock exchange rules to comply with and when the big shareholders tell him no that will be that.
andybhoy
{Ed007's Note - I have been told that 'Our 'remembering' cookie worked ok until the iOS7 upgrade came along', so that must be a problem they are working on.}
Cheers ed, it changed many things ios7
{Ed007's Note - Apples aren't just bad for you in the bible you know, I'm a Samsung man myself.}
Think you're right Andy, we may well be too far down the PLC road and the Board do have other obligations but the fans will always be the bloodline and the one constant of any Club.
I was trying to say this in my original post, fans want more money spent but keep the charitable, moral roots. If you are trying to compete with Real Madrid, Barca, Manchester United etc that isn't going to happen. The debts these Clubs (manageable or not) are allowed to run up and the wages paid to players are anything but moral.
It is very frustrating watching a Club like Celtic in the Champions League, previous European Champions with homegrown talent and massive fanbase be described as punching above their weight for no other reason other than we play in Scotland. Can't see the financial fair play regulations making one bit of difference.
Agree with all you say mrs E, it might take a sharp rise in interest rates across Europe to make celtics financial prudence really count. Some of these clubs debts would then become a real problem for them. It would hurt us all though .
andybhoy