Celtic Banter Archive November 12 2014

12 Nov 2014 20:24:41
Mrs E fans pay good money and should expect Celtic to entertain them as well as win so its no surprise when the team falls short of expectation some show a bit of displeasure and criticise . its healthy to do so however we can't expect when Ronny is introducing a new system of play that all staff are able to adapt instantly to it. yes we need a few better players to complement the ones we have and are better suited to that system but hope supporters can show a little patience as we all want an entertaining and successful Celtic and I think the manager will deliver if given money and time

Money investment alone won't make much difference . For years now Manchester City has been spending vast amounts of money with no European success even though they have been amongst the top seeds .

Celtic's success will have to come about by Deila's formation and tactics, properly carried out by super fit, eager players who play together for the good of the club . Of course in the coming windows Celtic will buy in players, but they won't often spend more than they bring in, in sales .

What would you regard as success chris?

I agree gerry, given 2/3 years and money to spend on both wages and transfer fees. I don't want a massive spending spree every window. Just that when the chance comes he is backed financial.

rayman I know you asked chris but il say what I would consider success would be after 3 years 3 titles and 3 cups in terms of trophies plus a clear sign of improvement year on year in europe. not just in terms of points accumulated in the group or getting to the last 16 but maybe an expectation of always being involved in europe beyond xmas, be that last 16 of the CL or latter stages of EL after coming 3rd in CL. That would be enough for me. If we continued to not qualify for CL I would argue that some needed to change.

actually also I would like him to show that he is capable of handling a young players transition into the first team.

maybe that's asking a lot. What would you deem successful rayman? say by the end of 3 years, or at least 2

Success is first and foremost winning the SPL . If we can add a domestic cup and European Football after Christmas, I would regard that as very good success for this season . In the coming seasons ditto except Champions League football after Christmas . In 3/4 years progress to last 16 and then last 8 of Champions League . Always winning the main one the SPL .

Gerry I know all that and agree with you :-)

Sunday was a prime example - that was anything but pretty and quite a poor performance but we did grind out the result. All I could write was 'delighted for Ronny and to be back top of the league' (which I was), write anything about the performance and it would have been some kinda anti-Ronny agenda. This is not the case at all.

With the new system what kinda system do we think this is? Football players have been playing the game since primary school, how long do you give them to adapt, what players are out of position, Stokes maybe - the rest aren't? Alright, I know it could be passing, faster etc but still.

The deal is at Celtic, you have to be able to make the changes and win matches. Just like most jobs I suppose.

I keep reading stuff like fans are happy with the progress and performances then in the same sentence half the players have to go for not being good enough - who's kidding who with this kinda stuff. You know yourself when you're at a games, fans are not standing saying 'oh once his ideas all come together we will be just fine and dandy', they are hurling abuse, booing, (rightly or wrongly is down to personal opinion). They were all walking out before half-time v Legia Warsaw and Hamilton was mega abuse - the word progress was definitley not used in a positive way.

I like healthy debate as well but not this daft sarcasm as if its going to make the poster change their mind or make them feel embarrassed somehow, its not.

Ronny does need time and a few wee things are starting to fall into place but the test will be players he brings in over the next 2/3 transfer windows and will the football and performances get better?

Agree with Chris in that sometimes its not just about the money alone, its about how you spend it.

Chris we were already there mate, so what needed changing? If ou think we will make last 8 your kiddin yourself on.

Rayman we have to have our dreams, if everyone at Celtic thought we would all be happy with just winning the SPL then that's where we would be . We got into Champions League last 16 before, surely with a fitter and better coached team and a large slice of luck we could win through to the next round
If we think that is impossible then if we make the last 16 we might as well give our opponents a bye, to the last 8.

You said it mate a large slice o luck. because its not going to be abiity that's gets us there.

Rayman i'm certainly glad you're not a player or a coach with an attitude like that. We might as well just not bother, eh? Just turn off the lights and pull down the shutters?

13 Nov 2014 08:46:52
When Strømsgodset sold you guys Stefan Johansen for about 2 mill £, they got more money in to than what Deila used to buy for his whole time, from 2008-09 to 2013. He bought Johansen and Anders Konradsen for under 200.000£, and sold them both for over 4 mill £. Rest of the players where either free agents or free loans from mancity (farmer club) and Jo inge Berget loan from Udinese. Rest of the players are from own youthsystem. (Wikheim 17, ødegaard 14, Iver Fossum 15 etc etc all first team players now. Ødegaard got his cup debut at age 13. He also ( cause of his teachers degree) got in touch with the schools system and started the Godset football academy.

Jim I just a realist mate, we can't get into it at the moment and now people are talking last 8. Are you kidding? because we will be fiiter/faster./stronger/ your lucky if we improve 5% in that department and that's a lot. And do you not think the players in the last 16 are not only fitter but prob much better players.With much more experienced coaches, Mate I will wager you anything you want we won't make the last 8 in next 3 years. If we going to dream why not win it lol.

Rayman - your a realist so you will know Celtic were extremely lucky to have made the last 16, 2 years ago.

Last year was embarrassing in the Champions League. At the end of this season, if we only win the league then you can say RD was not a success.

If he wins the treble and provides a good run in the Europa then feel free to praise the guy.

Rayman, you don't really deserve an answer as you previously have posted that we have already achieved everything except last eight and you seemed to say we didn't need change .
I reckon the Deila approach with the assistance of McGuinness and others will mean we will reach last 16 more often and can also make the last 8, I will agree that 3 years is probably a little bit soon but I cannot see why not within 4/5 years from now . I hope and believe Deila can show a gradual improvement with the squad's results, a improvement that can be maintained
I find it strange that you know that Deila can produce a 5% improvement .
I wonder how you come to such a precise amount and when we know he has achieved that 5% .

14 Nov 2014 16:11:59
Chris how do you know that Deila will start getting us to last 26 or last 8? He might not even get us to qualify so all this is just your opinion against someone else. At this moment no one is right or wrong. So I am not commenting on what he will doing the future, I am commenting on where we are now after playing 20 games under him. For me it's poor football. Tonight Scotland play Ireland and Strachan will play 4/2/3/1. This is a manager who gets with his players once every 8 weeks but has got them playing this formation with no problem. The difference may be the way Deila wants to press the opposition but it does not take 20 weeks when you are working with players 6 days a week to get them to understand how to play a formation. Do Scotland have better players than Celtic?
Maybe but there is something not working at Celtic this season.

Theres no reason why we can't reach last 8 if we have good squad and a good coaching strategy in place. Remember its the luck of the draw who you get

Johnnmac, twenty games within three months of the season with three international breaks hardly gives Deila much of an opportunity to put his stamp on the players . Celtic have been playing a game near enough every 3rd or 4th day or else players have been away on International duty . Given that players need at least one day's rest after a game and very light training the day before a game, how do you expect Deila to make any more progress than he has done? . He has tightened up the team and has had a string of positive results .

12 Nov 2014 07:55:24
ED001 - can I ask something to gain a bit of perspective here, Liverpool - is it fair to say they are still in every competition?

Champions League, League Cup, FA Cup and still possible for a top 4 finish?

Have you been moaning about performances, I know you have? What if you were constantly reading you were out of order for this and were only doing it because you wanted a 'Liverpool minded' Manager?

Yes, Celtic are now top of the league and still in every competition but that's not the bigger picture here by a long shot. This isn't about having a go at Ronny either, its just about the overall drop in standards at Celtic.

Only last season, not progressing past the group stages in the Champions League was a major complaint now we're happy with a draw away to some unknown Romanian mob in the EL.

Ronny does need time but he's not a miracle worker, this team needs investment and better quality players to come in, and that's just for a start.

{Ed001's Note - the thing is that some people will not be happy until the manager is an ex-Liverpool player Mrs E. They are on the back, and always will be on the back, of anyone who doesn't come into the job with a previous connection to the club. Obviously Bill Shankly is a name they have never even heard of, if they think that a connection to the club is essential to managing it!

Besides all that, this is Brendan Rodgers 3rd season, not his first. There have been problems at the club throughout his tenure that he has never come close to solving, despite having spent countless millions of defenders, for instance, the team are still awful at defending.

You are trying to compare that to a manager who has just walked into the job a few months back and had peanuts to spend on players. There is just no way of comparing the two. That is why I never compained about Rodgers in his first season, even though the football was awful and Liverpool struggled. You need time to judge a manager, time to coach the players into his chosen way of playing. Deila has not had time, so any judgements are false, especially when you look at how the team has been assembled.}

12 Nov 2014 09:19:21
I am actually happy with the progress Deila is making and I can now see what he is trying to do and his team look far more solid now than they did at the start of the season. Yes I was disappointed we get pumped out of the CL but I also recall Strachan getting pumped out of the CL against Bratislava when he first arrived and he inherited a much better team than Deila did. I also accept that we are not yet at the level of last season but have faith we will overtake that.

At the minute I am pleased with the following players: Gordon, Lustig, Denayer, van Dijk, Izzy, Brown, Wakaso, Johanssen and Guidetti. I have also seen enough of Scepovic to believe that he will be a good addition to our team but has still got improvement to make. If we get a good midfielder to replace Mulgrew in the pivot and a good right winger, perhaps Forrest when he gets back up to speed and stays fit, then I think we will have a strong team.

12 Nov 2014 09:56:13
Hi, never posted here before but wanted to share a couple of things about Deila. When he took charge of Strømsgodset, they where like a bad version of old Stoke in playingstyle, they where a team that couldn't stay up in the Tippeliga for more than a season or two at a row and always finishing at playoff at best. Deila started as a assistent/cb for one season before he retired as a player. This season the team got their best leagueposition in many years and many was doubtful to if Deila could continue their good form. In his first season Deila had a lot of problems with getting the team to work, Strømsgodset almost was relegated this season and every paper was saying Deila's got to go. The next season they started to really play fantastic football, having the youngest squad in the league finishing second in the league with one point to the top. Last season before getting the Celtic job, Strømsgodset won the league and is now considering as one of the best run clubs in Norway, with a bunch of talents coming up or in (Stefan Johansen, Martin Ødegaard etc). My point is even if the team is strugling now, things will get better maybe strugling a bit more this season. i'm a Manutd fan myself and as you may know, things ain't peachy over there either. Thanks! BTW: the best of luck for the upcoming Old Firm.

It wasn’t strictly a comparison, it was just more a frustration about the whole 'Celtic minded' thing and how being in every competition doesn’t always give a true reflection. Liverpool were brilliant to watch last season but defensively a bombscare and this was ignored by many as long as they were scoring goals but it seriously caught up with them and cost them the league. Whether it was his tactics or the defenders themselves or both, its even worse this season. The same could well happen here, we lose another couple of players that are not properly replaced and we go into even more decline. We cannot afford for this to happen- we were already compared to a Sunday league pub side last Sunday.

I know some fans of every team like a Manager who ‘understands’ or whatever reason they give for this ‘minded’ thing but its quite a poor assumption to make and getting tedious when posting – go buy a Bolton ticket (Sorry Kev I don’t mean to have a go but its just an example). Fans have serious concerns about the team performances at the moment and they have not improved since last season, it would be fair to say we have been in freefall since the Juve defeat in the last 16 of the Champions League.

Granted i’ve had a love/no sure thing going on with Ronny (as I did with Lennon) and was not happy with the Legia Warsaw 6-1 soulless performance nor was I happy when he said we had made progress after the 1-0 defeat to Hamilton. I was delighted to see him show some emotion after the Aberdeen game but the performance was very poor in most parts. Happy with the scoreline though.

I just cannot see where the assumption is coming from that once his ideas are implemented (whatever they are), everything will just fall into place?

I fully expect a sarcastic comment to appear under this sometime today but it will not change how I think or anyone else who is moaning, we will still go to the games and the fans will be discontent and boo if the performances don’t improve.

Its almost as if we cannot post about a bad performance now without a load of sarcasm appearing about Neil Lennon or wanting a Celtic minded Manager – I might be misunderstanding this but its tedious and I’d bet driving posters away.

Bur cheers Ed001, Rab and Norwegianrad - this I can post about and at least gets me interested

{Ed001's Note - in my opinion, appointing a former hero is just an easy way out for a board. You appoint someone like him, the fans immediately take his side and if they fail you can blame them as they wanted him. Look at Forest under Pearce, even ten games without a win, having played dreadful football non-stop, under a manager that has been proven to be inept elsewhere and has never tried to play good football. Any fan that dares to say anything against him gets met with a barrage of abuse from 'super'fans that just idolise him from his playing days. They even find it hilarious that he bit an opposing player, oh and he racially abused Paul Ince as well, but those same people were abusing Suarez last season. But Pearce is one of them and so they will give him leeway. That is why a board appoints them. That is why they should never get the job, in my opinion, as they really have to make a complete pigs ear of things before they get the sack, because otherwise the fans won't accept it.

That is not to say Pearce won't necessarily become a good manager at Forest, just that he gets support even though his record up until now is poor, because of who he is. For me you need to look for the right person for the club, someone who suits what the board intend to do and their future vision for it.

In Celtic's case, I think that is exactly what they have done with Deila. They want someone to play good football on a shoestring and use the youth players to provide income. Deila's record suggests he can do that and was willing to work on the budget offered and the wages being paid. You have to remember, that budget and wage package will rule out a huge number of managers that are just going to see no gain for themselves in working under those circumstances. Deila might turn out to be a mistake, but I don't see a lot of better options out there who would be willing to take the job.

I am sure someone will bring up the name Roy Keane though, just because of the 'Celtic' minded thing.....}

12 Nov 2014 11:38:07
I guess that's why he was picked, cause he can turn things around without using to much money and cause he's not a that well known he wouldn't nag about it either. I think one of the best sides of Deila is his of pitch work. Establishing a diet, upgrading the youthsetup and the training facilities. Deila in his time at Strømsgodset did the same thing, but it took a season before you really could see the results. But of course I can see this from your side also, it looks like the progress isn't the best. But I feel its better this way than some other manager that tend to have a fantastic first season and then get stuck in the same formation and strategy over and over until he gets fired? Slow progress tend to work the best, as long he gets the right amount of time from the club and fans. don't get me wrong, I had my doubts about Deila the first two seasons at Strømsgodset, but I can se the same progress in Celtic as in Strømsgodset.

You won't get a sarcastic comment from me Mrs E, I think you speak a lot of sense.
I don't know of any Celtic supporter who wants Ronny deila to fail, If he did, it would set the club back a couple of years, as another manager would have to come in to sort out the mess.
That doesn't mean though, that it is wrong to have an opinion, I thought that was the whole idea this site.

12 Nov 2014 11:58:05
The funny thing is that Deila used to be a CB himself and the first thing that also happend after he took over Strømsgodset was that the defence was really bad. Everything was bad, failed passes etc etc. But after a while you could see that the players could pass without even looking, cause he knows where the team mates are and therefore getting that fluid play.

12 Nov 2014 12:01:08
I was listening to some guys on a podcast talking about Celtic and they raised an interesting point, well at least I thought it was interesting.

The point they raised was related to what Ronny is trying to do at Celtic. Basically Ronny is trying to get the team playing at a high tempo which requires closing down in packs high up the pitch and fast passing. For that to work the players need to be super fit, work as a unit and be able to control the ball moving at high speed.

They made the point that some of our players don't yet have the technical ability to pass and control the ball at high speeds and that it takes time to train them so they can operate at that level. This is the reason we are seeing lots of passes going astray [next time you watch Celtic keep an eye on how long players spend on the ball and how quick they try to make the pass]. A consequence of these stray passes results in our play breaking down and our players getting caught out of position as they are already moving forward. It also means our players need to work harder which means they are out of gas with about 10 minutes to go.

They also made the point that for our system to work the players have to close down the opposition quickly and high up the park. If someone does not press or is slow to press, then the opposition can make an easy pass and if they do it quick enough then we are susceptible to the counter attack. What we need to keep in mind is that this system is alien to many of our players and it will take time for them to perfect it.

Which brings me to my next point. When Ronny said we are making progress after the Hamilton game, I don't think he was meaning from Lennon's team last year. In fact, I think he was referring to our shape, our pressing and our passing in relation to the style he wants us to play. I am inclined to agree with him although I know we are not there yet. The reason I say that is that I see our play breaking down less now, our shape has improved since the start of the season and we are looking more solid than we did at the start of the season.

To conclude, I just wanted to say that I think Ronny and JC deserve more time because I think we are moving in the right direction. I also think we should realise that this is a work in progress and we will see bad performances before it comes to fruition, especially after European games as 3 games in a week played at this tempo must be tiring on the players. I just hope that our fans get off his back, give him time and reserve judgement until the end of the season. Hopefully a win against Rangers will buy him the time he needs.

12 Nov 2014 12:41:11
Very well said Rabmac, that was my point also. The progress is very alike as in Strømsgodset, and hopefully they will get enough time to set the systems. You can see the game is slovely getting somewhere.The first two seasons in Godset was awful, but won the cuptitle the third season, and was titlecontenders after that. This with almost no budget and losing his best players after every season. Think about how good this team can be when they start to play better? Almost thrue to next round in euroleague, and top of the league when playing badly?

Ed – there’s no denying we can become blind to one of our own (so to speak) and want to believe its all been a mistake somehow. Being a talented player also brings a blind spot, Suarez is a prime example, I’d have him back at Liverpool in heartbeat. Tonev, I’d punt him back to Aston Villa and really have no opinion on the evidence as I don’t see him as a positive addition to Celtic. I know I should take the moral high ground and demand he gets a fair hearing but its on my list of priorities at all.

I just don’t like poor performances or results and I do not like losing, I do not care who is managing them – ex Celtic player or not.

@ Rab – I’m not happy with our set-up defensively at all but have said this for a few seasons. Pawlett for example on Sunday and the Scott Brown challenge in the first half, that was a foul all day long and we were lucky. Pawlett did Brown for pace but where was our defence – totally ripped. We are allowing teams to come right up the park onto us and for me, this is the reason why so many teams are getting shots on goal and costing us. Maribor and the draw v Astra.

I don’t really listen to podcasts (just the time thing) but we’ve raised this on here before about technical ability which all the diets and ideas in the world will not bring but I’d like to think the players are not at Celtic without having a least above SPL average ability. Agree with this point – Ronny is not a miracle worker in this respect.

Gerry - I just like reading others opinions and moans and I think we all see the same thing anyway with regards performances.

12 Nov 2014 12:55:28
MrE, no sarcasm coming from me either. I can see a bit the same here as in Manutd. Of course Celtic can't use a lot off money on players and such, but I can see the same thing going on there. Van Gaal said its going to take time to rebuild the team and get all the players learn the philosophy. Many United fans are calling for VanGaals head already and some means that Moyes did a better job. The main difference is that Van Gaal is going somewhere. Its a bit same with Deila, things will get worse before it gets better. But I like your points and views on Deila, cause as a norwegian and a Godset fan I can't be objective :-)

12 Nov 2014 13:13:23
The better shape the players are the more they work on the pitch. If you want best results in your training you have to eat right, at the right time before and after training/match. If there is something we norwegians is good at, its right training, right diet and right amount of sleep. (if only we could emulate this from skiing to norwegian football though:-) i'm not saying its all about that, but I think this will prove good, but maybe not for a while. As he says himself: "im not training footballer, but humanbeeings" :-)

12 Nov 2014 13:26:46
@Mrs E - I already pointed out the reasons for our defensive frailties at times but surely you can admit that we are not as open now as we were at the start of the season?

The reason we are being opened up at times is because our passing is not quite where it needs to be. This means that when a pass goes astray we can be left open because our players are bombing forward, especially the full backs. As soon as we cut out these mistakes this won't happen. Another reason we get left open is that not all the players are closing down or they are not doing it quick enough. This means we are vulnerable to the counter attack if the opposition can get it out quick enough. Again this won't happen once the team are more intune at closing down.

I don't for a second think that Ronny is not drilling the players to close down or working on their passing and ball control at high speed but as I pointed out this takes time to perfect. Once it is perfected our players will be better players for it and we should be a good attacking team that is both pleasing on the eye and hard to stop.

The only thing I hope is that Ronny realises that this won't work against your Real Madrids, Barcelonas and Bayern Munichs and that he needs a plan B.

Thanks for your input Norwegianred it's interesting to hear from someone who knows first hand what Deila is trying to do and who has seen the good job he done in Norway. If the Celtic support get behind him it could be the start of somthing beautiful.

Sent from Joe's iPhone

Geat post Mrs E, here is my thinkin with this. Godset can afford to get a manger who given time can achieve great things, (in Norway not been in CL tho).A celtic manager cannot esp with Rangers not there. For Celtic to improve we NEED CL money because let's be honest the net batch of quality kids ain't round the corner and prob never will be again.We missed out already poss 16m how long can we go on missin out on that? We had n opportunity to cement our placewithin CL qualification with a group of players who were successful at this and put our co efficient up. Not 1 of us here would have knocked back a Maribor or Legia before season started to qualify.Now because we didn't our co efficient will drop instead of improving which would have meant less qualifiers etc.Added to the fact we now have less money to spend.Now I hear you all say well NL didn't in his 1st season etc, yeah but he took over a team who cudnt beat St.Mirren etc and nowhere near CL. RD has taken over a seasoned CL standard quality players(yes if you in you that standard) who were used to qualifying. So what do we expectof RD? CL qualifying? Most defo. Last 16? Once in a while yes but prob neverany further.Win league? Obviously. Cups? Some of course but can't win them all the time. So in retrospect just where we were apart from the odd cup, what was needed to revolutionise the club?

12 Nov 2014 16:02:00
@Rayman - There is no denying that failure to qualify for the CL was a big blow not just for our fans but also the clubs coffers. There is also no denying that the blame for that failure rests with Ronny. However, we are where we are and I think we should be looking forward, not backwards. We should be getting behind the manager as he seems to have things moving in the right direction again. let's give him our support until the end of the season and then judge.

Van the man at Manchester United says even with spending hundreds of millions it's going to take him 3 years to turn round Manchester United . Some of our posters thinks Deila with a very meagre transfer chest, should have managed it in three months . Not least of Deila's difficulties is the fact that Celtic are playing two games per week, or else nearly all the players are away on International duty, meaning Deila hasn't been given time to work properly with his players .

My point chris is no matter how good he is he can't take us any further than where we were.CL most years with a last 16 now and again.Obv sometimes you need to take a step backward to go forward but to where, we never going to get further than last 16 in the current financial climate and the power the big teams in Europe have.

12 Nov 2014 20:19:08
Glad I could help Joe, just wanna share what I know about him before he went to Celtic. My older brother is a Celtic fan and been to the old firm a couple of times back in the days, (said he saw you guys give some Rangers fans some Glasgow kisses? :)

Rayman - RD wants to bring attacking football to Celtic, whether we get progress in Europe is debatable.

He wants to change from the the long ball crap that we have watched over the last 3 to 4 years. Time will tell if it works.

Norweiganred - told you how it progressed at Stromsgodset. RD will have time at Celtic, why? because its simple - we have no challengers in our domestic league and won't have for the foreseeable future.

13 Nov 2014 18:39:36
Kev T, yeah your right about that. I think one of the reasons why it took a while longer than it will take with Celtic is that everything was new to him, the club was also in bad shape almost going bankrupt. RD told in an interview that everything at Celtic is as new to him as it was in the begining at Godset. Hopefully the winingstreak continues with qualifying for next round in EL.