Celtic Banter Archive March 10 2012

 

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10 Mar 2012 20:47:48
@steph

yes I did mate

hail hail

Marco1888

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Lol,stef1967

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10 Mar 2012 20:05:00
Oh if only the Rangers Fc (IN ADMINISTRATION)
fans understood Irony?
Their name for raising money is called
The Rangers Fans FIGHTING Fund!
this name is just SO APPROPRIATE ......

If Carlsberg did Irony.....
Timalloy

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ED001, sorry I meant to say that this time in the absence of our "bond" you are updating page very quickly, well done
(thanks for the tenner was that OK what you told me to say ha ha) LOL Timalloy {Ed001's Note - I will take all the credit, even though it hasn't been me! I have been mopping up the house after me old boiler (the one that does the heating in case you wondered) decided to spring a leak and flood the house out *sighs*. I blame Miko, it was his bet that did it!}

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ED001 yes Miko and Steph's bets are like the lottery if you win you win big, but big big odds of winning. Wee question, I look on football bets site and also on sports bets site, the latter does not seem to get updated on a daily basis, are you planning to encourage more tips for cheltenham on sports site? Cheers Timalloy {Ed001's Note - the sports bets one just doesn't have as much traffic, due to the football bets one keeping the editors who like to gamble so busy! To be honest without a separate editor who wants to get into doing the horse bets etc all the time, I don't know what will happen. We hadn't expected the football bets one to take off like it has and keep the editors so busy. If anyone is interested in helping with that one feel free to use the contact form to get in touch! We don't really plan like that though Tim, it is about all we can do to keep up with editing.}

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10 Mar 2012 19:13:43
have a read of this bhoys

Rangers, the biggest scandal in the History
of Sport and the rest
Perspective is difficult to find in these times, when
information floods in from all angles on a daily
basis. With this in mind, The Battered Bunnet put
a day aside to give you a detailed summary (below) of how we go to
where we are today. He pays particular attention to some of those who
plan to be part of the games future, with a nod to those currently in
control of the game.
Its a fascinating read:
Scottish Football is in crisis, a crisis that has been 15 years in the making
by the Directors of Rangers Football Club plc, compounded by a chronic
lack of Governance and Oversight by the cronyistic SFA through the
years.
Lets revisit the cause of the crisis for a moment:
When David Murray bought Rangers in 1988, the club had won but 4
league titles in 20 years, and prior to the arrival of Graeme Souness, had
been a Scottish League also ran for a decade. Souness, with David
Holmes as Chairman, started the reversal of fortune and effectively
restored Rangers as a player in British football.
Murray, giving credit where its due, transformed Rangers both as a
football club and a business. Between 1988 and 1996, Rangers
turnover increased by a factor of 5, double double and then some in
only 8 years. During this time, the club became dominant in Scotland
and competitive in Europe, while considerable sums were invested in the
stadium and infrastructure, providing Rangers with a (comparatively)
vast commercial resource to fund its football operations. While the club
carried £9M of debt at this point, it was profitable, posting £2M surplus
in 1996, and breaking even over the period of Murrays tenure to that
point.
By 1996 Murray had a valuable football business on his hands, and
perhaps the smart play would have been to sell it. Football was in an
expansionary phase, and there would have been a queue of interested
and well bankrolled investors at the door. Instead, Murray chose to
redouble his efforts, and taking Rangers to the next level became the
mantra adopted by the man and his increasingly fawning press.
Highlighting that Murray was not alone in thinking that Rangers could
indeed become one of Europes top clubs, the following year Joe Lewis
invested £40M in return for a 20% share. One wonders what Murray
might have walked away with had he sold the lot to Lewis at that time,
but he kept his hand in the game, and went all in over the following 6
years.
Between 1997 and 2003 Rangers lost an eye watering £152.6 Million.
Joe Lewis £40M was gobbled up in jig time, followed by £20M of Dave
Kings tax efficient stash, plus a £32M investment by Murrays business,
£6M from smaller shareholders, and a further £15M of NTLs
investment in the hopeless Rangers Media venture. At its nadir in 2004,
Rangers net debt was a staggering £83 Million, a monument to the ego
of David Murray and his dream for Rangers.
Unfortunately, burning shareholders and creditors cash at such a
breath-taking rate was not sufficient to fund Murrays project, and the
club embarked upon a series of schemes to pay players and reduce
costs. A Discount Option Scheme saved over £2M between 1999 and
2003, while an Employee Benefit Trust framework saved £45M of
payroll tax and gross wages between 2000 and 2010. It is worthwhile
noting that the cost savings alone from these schemes gave Rangers a
financial advantage equivalent to the total payroll of every other SPL
team excluding Celtic.
We know now, thanks to the admissions of former director Hugh Adam,
that off the books payments to Rangers players had started as early as
the mid-1990s, and the DOS and EBT schemes were simply formalising
a by then established practice.
By 2005, with Rangers reduced to little more than a financial basket
case, Bank of Scotland insisted that the club be brought back into
balance, and following a failed public share issue, Murrays holding
company swapped £50M of Rangers debt for increased equity. The
following year JJB paid £15M cash as a future royalty for a 10 year solus
agreement on Rangers merchandise. Murray might very well have sold
the jersey, but Rangers at long last had gotten rid of all but £6M of
debt, and a new sustainable plan was implemented, a plan that
endured no longer than Paul Le Guens 26 games in charge.
When Walter Smith replaced Le Guen, the new plan was binned and
Rangers once again embarked upon a front loaded business model,
with debt increasing on the back of player purchases and wages that the
club could not sustain. By 2009 Rangers had £33M of bank debt and
Murrays companies, so long the guarantor of the funding, had utterly
collapsed in the property and construction crash of 2008. It is
worthwhile remembering that some £70 Million of Rangers losses
through the years remains on the Murray International Holdings Ltd
balance sheet, unpaid to the part-nationalised Bank of Scotland/Lloyds
Banking Group.
Early in 2010, following an unusually long Tax Enquiry, Rangers received
a Tax Assessment from HMRC for their use of EBTs in the preceding 10
years. The Bill for £24M, had a further £12M of accrued interest
attached, and the promise of penalties to come.
Alastair Johnston, who had replaced Murray as Chairman of Rangers
following the crash of Murrays business empire, had a decision to
make. In the summer of 2010, £36M tax demand in hand, and an
appeal against which scheduled for October, Johnston was planning the
coming seasons business. He could have chosen to sell the top
footballers which would have brought in around £20M of proceeds. He
could have chosen to run the club on a reduced cost model, one that
was profitable on domestic football alone, thereby banking a further
£20M from their participation in the Champions League. Had he done
so, and ring fenced the cash, Rangers would have been in a position to
withstand losing the Tax Case Appeal without bankrupting the club.
Alastair Johnston and his Board chose not to. He chose instead to spend
money increasing the size of the squad, with £4M spent on Jelavic
alone. Whatever else you hear about Rangers sorry plight, remember
that in the summer of 2010 Alastair Johnston and his Board decided
to prioritise football results ahead of the very existence of the
club . That was the last time that Rangers fate was in the hands of the
Club. From the moment the decision was taken not to act, Rangers fate
was sealed.
Craig Whytes bizarre 9 month tenure of course is attracting all of the
headlines, and Murrays reckless disregard for shareholders and laws
have precipitated the crisis, but Alastair Johnston, along with Paul
Murray, Martin Bain, John McClelland and the rest doomed the club by
their inaction in the summer of 2010.
We are now aware that Rangers use of unlawful tax strategies had a
consequent impact on the proper Registration of their players. I wont
pour over the relevant rules here, suffice to say that in making payments
to players via undisclosed agreements that were not provided for in the
football contracts lodged with the authorities, many of Rangers top
players have been ineligible to play in official matches for a decade or
more.
As if it couldnt get any more damning, the very Directors of Rangers
who conceived, implemented and administered these contractual
arrangements, were simultaneously Directors of the SFA and the
SPL , the bodies responsible for Governance and Oversight. Step forward
John McClelland, Martin Bain and Campbell Ogilvie. That Ogilivie is
currently President of the SFA simply beggars belief. It appears as
though Football in Scotland has been bent for 2 decades, and the people
responsible were running the game.
There is a current SPL Inquiry into this issue, and perhaps that will
reveal the true extent of the breaches of rules, but from the information
now available in the public domain, there is a prima facie case for
voiding the results of hundreds of matches in which Rangers have
participated over the years, and stripping the club of any titles won
during the period. The expulsion of the club from the game is talked of.
In terms of athletes and duration, it represents a bigger sporting fraud
than the Balco case, and is on that basis, the biggest scandal in the
History of Sport .
Did I say a moment? Forgive me, but it has taken a little while to
describe 15 years of malfeasance and deception.
In summary, in the 15 years from 1996 to 2011, Rangers have spent a
staggering £168 Million more than they have earned. They have saved a
further £47 Million of payroll costs via the use of questionable tax
strategies. They have corrupted the rules of the game from the inside.
And now they are bankrupt, with the very real prospect of £100 Million
of creditors being turned over in one of the biggest corporate
failures in Scottish business history .
Against this backdrop, Scottish Football has to divine the way ahead. We
have to figure a way out of this mess and build a new future. Everything
must be on the table, everything that is except narrow self-interest.
Following a Liquidation, if a group of supporters of a dissolved Rangers
get together and start a new football club, one that looks like and sounds
like Rangers, playing in blue shirts at Ibrox or elsewhere, I say good luck
to them. Of such like-minded people are Football clubs are born. There
is clearly a business opportunity given the size of the support for the old
club. The pathway is straight forward: Put a Business Plan together;
Invest the necessary Capital; and Apply for membership of the Scottish
Football League. If the club prospers on the park they will be rewarded
with promotions and will emerge into the top flight in their own merits,
self-respecting and respectful. Such qualities does Meritocracy provide.
That is a decision though for Rangers supporters. The rest of us need to
figure out a new plan. Without Rangers there will inevitably be less
money in the top league, fewer fans perhaps, less TV and sponsorship
money. We need to accept that reality and respond to it.
I suggest we look towards Cooperation, Collective Interest, Inter-
Dependence.
The hardest hit will be those clubs most reliant on the money lost.
Redistribution of TV income should be considered. No question.
Youth Development should be looked at again, not least because for
most clubs it will define their future. Closer cooperation amongst the
clubs can yield benefits for both clubs and players. A modified Draft
system might be appropriate, whereby players graduating from Under
19/20 are available to be signed by other clubs in a predetermined
sequence, perhaps with the developing club having a first option on 2
players, the remainder co-opted into the draft.
Considering Celtics worldwide scouting network, is there potential to
share information on overseas prospects with the other clubs? An easy
thing to implement.
Looking at income, the huge imbalance created by the participation fees
paid to clubs qualifying for the Champions League distorts domestic
competition. Can we consider a distribution to all clubs of Marketing
fees and likes from UEFA for our clubs participation in UEFA
competitions?
Finally, what other means do we have, given the collective talent and
resources of the top clubs in Scottish Football, to generate new
opportunities, new market share, new income? If necessity is indeed the
Mother of Invention, we are not short of need. Lets get innovative.
Of course, all of this is based upon a consensual approach to the crisis
we face. It is widely reported that the other 10 clubs in the SPL are
meeting next week to consider an appropriate response to the problems
we all face. Celtic have not been invited to attend. This in itself is a
concern, as it draws something of a line in the sand between the
interests of the 10, and the interests of Celtic. One SPL chairman told
BBC Scotland: This is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to change
things. Such change, hatched by the 10 other clubs and forced upon
Celtic is not a cooperative approach.
Moreover, Celtic are by a distance the biggest box office in the league.
This season attendance at Celtic Park equates to 72% of the total
attendances at all other grounds excluding Ibrox. A series of decisions
on restructuring the SPL and redistributing the proceeds from the
competition that excluded the stakes of almost half of the fans in the
league is surely invalid.
Quite what will these clubs do with their self-acknowledged once-in-a-
lifetime opportunity to change things?
Perhaps the 10 SPL Clubs will come up with some truly radical and
forward looking ideas that are at face value, innovative, imaginative and
laudable.
Perhaps though they wont. Perhaps their ideas will be a little more self-
interested. That is certainly the form book in Scottish Football.
Redistribution of SPL TV and Sponsorship income that excludes the
Champion team from the divvy? Why not eh. The 10 Clubs will have the
SPL voting majority to do so.
What would the implications be should the 10 Clubs decide that gate
sharing was the way ahead for the SPL? Certainly, in the absence of
Rangers, they would carry the voting rights to approve such a decision,
irrespective of any objections from the fans whose money would be
redirected.
And indeed, the admission of a New Rangers directly into the SPL,
bypassing all meritocratic and long established practices in the game
worldwide.
Establishing a new business is a challenging activity. Doing so in the
midst of the financial chaos enveloping Rangers is utterly fraught. Those
considering such a move need to have confidence in revenue
projections and market. In the case of a New Rangers, the arbiter of
revenue is the League they will participate in. It is reasonable to assume
that informal soundings have been taken by those considering a New
Rangers project from those with the power to determine which market
they will operate in.
I have no problem with Stephen Thomson of Dundee Utd picking up the
phone and chatting to Stewart Milne of Aberdeen. Indeed, I would
expect it in the ordinary course, never mind the crisis we all face.
However, given the likelihood that those behind a New Rangers are right
now making their initial pitch to each of the 10 clubs, it is somewhat
distressing that those same 10 clubs should in short course arrange a
meeting to discuss and plan the way ahead, excluding Celtic and the
interests of half the remaining fans of the SPL.
Paul Murray, Martin Bain, John McClelland, Alastair Johnston, Dave King:
The men who brought this disaster down upon the game in this country,
who corrupted the game from the inside for a decade or more, who
burned £100 Million of creditors money, who are responsible for
ripping off the Tax Payer and the Football Fan alike, who failed to act on
Rangers crisis when action was most needed, these men and their likes
are currently negotiating with the 10 Clubs the conditions for the entry
of New Rangers directly back into the SPL.
The very essence of Sport, the history of Football, and the future of the
Game in this country is to be decided in the coming weeks by the
chairmen of just 10 Clubs. In the hands of these men is the legacy of the
game accidentally entrusted, and its future precariously placed.
At our moment of crisis, when wisdom and consensus are most needed,
what direction will they take? Where will Scottish Football go from here?
To a new, mature, responsible and progressive place? Or to Hell in a
Handcart.
Hail Hail
Marco1888

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Marco1888
did u paste that from somewere my missus woz askin,lol,stef1967

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10 Mar 2012 17:20:39
Two very conflicting statements from The Anticoist : " That's their problem although I cannot say I'm not enjoying what's happening to them " McCoist 1994 : " When Celtic faced closure in 1994 my feelings then were of disbelief and concern for my friends who were Celtic fans " ( McCoist 2012)........DH

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Why the surprise?he's a sleekit dog.look at his whining on tv now. A Tim

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I would love to see him questioned on that. the sympathy would soon be gone. even so ;ALLY MUST STAY

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DH where did you get those statements from,would like to show my Rangers supporting mates who keep banging on about how much class super Ally has(aye right)MACCA

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They were textd to me from a good mate I will try and see him about them . Someone has also posted the comment he made in 1994 on the Admin site so ther must be some truth in it.......DH

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DH cheers mate appreciate it. MACCA

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10 Mar 2012 17:07:44
If you re-arrange the letters or saverangers fc you can make the word scavengers......appropriate or what.......Stevie

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10 Mar 2012 16:38:39
still time miko for me and ureself couple of draws
the no and 1 or 2 getin beat u never
no bud PS timalloy an no wot u meen
mate but i like a lot of teams,and
i fink that hooper n stokesy should
start and i fin we will win 3-1 or
sumhin,in the meantime am havin a
break from paperin and havin a beer
but i will keep upto date wi
results,stef1967

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My coupon's rubber ducked stef!

Miko

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Same here miko but al keep on goin
till a beat the bookies;-),stef1967
GB EXPERIENCE IN THA HOUSE LET
THE MUSIC PLAY

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Miko, Steph have you any horses for
Cheltenham? I am trying to run down some tips over weekend and will post Monday for start of Cheltenham on Tuesday, I am going for decent priced horses as it is so difficult... my bets will be each way hail hail Timalloy

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Cinder and Ashes first race on Tuesday(Supreme Noivice Hurdle) been betting it after recieving news about it from a stable hand. It should go very very close was his words. Ive backed it at 33's all the way down. Its now 7 to 1. No saying its a cert but my money is on.

Joeshmo1888

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Joeshmo thanks I will put some dosh on it, I posted earlier about Scotsirish also Tuesday should be about 10/1 ish. One piece of advice I can pass on is if doing Lucky 15/31 go to Paddy Power/Betfred or bookies that pay treble or more 1 winner also if betting each way look out for bookies going 5 places in big fields, again PP is good for this. Keep the tips coming bhoys. Timalloy

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10 Mar 2012 16:25:57
Easy to get distracted by the side-show at Crooks Anonymous - especially when the Ger-nalists are fishing and trying to involve anyone at our club to make a comment or opinion and then mis-quote them
I would hope the Bhoys are focussed for the biggest game of the season so far at Tannadyce.
As Tim says it's always been a hard venue and both teams will be going all out for it.
Hopefully we will be back at full strength and top form...Come on you Celts.

Jungle Jim

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10 Mar 2012 16:08:41
Alan Mcgregor agrees to take a 75% paycut .Glasgow massage parlours are appealing the decision ......DH

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10 Mar 2012 14:39:27
If roles were reversed and it was us in administration instead of r#ngers, how many of our bhoys would take 75% cut? I think most of the top earners would play for free. The likes of mulgrew, leddly, kayal and broony

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I dont think kayal would play for free davie c

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10 Mar 2012 14:15:10
Afternoon bhoys/ghirls lets have a rowing
club free day, what does everyone
think of game tomorrow?
Tannadice is always a hard place to
get a result, even during big Jock's
nine in a row, Dundee utd, especially
at Tannadice were a thorn in our side.
I think if we come through tomorrow
the treble is then very much on.
I predict a cracking game with two
teams going for it, and I would even
settle for bringing them back to
Celtic Park and then finish the job.
I hope Lenny plays Stokes/Hooper as we will need their goals. hail hail Timalloy

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Agree and disagree mate.Hard game for sure but i would use the system we used against udinese away.we seem to be a lot more compact in that.forrest worries me to as he's right off the boil and a tight pitch with not much of a surface aint his game.hooper is due a game as he seems to be running on empty at the moment.i can see goals in this.....green jhedi

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10 Mar 2012 13:45:30
Polis man stops a drunk driver and asks him to take a breath test, driver pulls out an NHS card "This man is asthmatic please dont take his breath polis man asks him to take a blood test, driver pulls out another NHS card "this man is anaemic please dont take his blood" ,polis man asks him to take a urine test driver pulls out a third NHS card which read "this man is a Rangers season ticket holder please dont take the piss"......Stevie

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10 Mar 2012 13:16:22
just thought a name for the newco rangers company, one that fits the company and fan profile.
THE JUNKIE GERS 2012

The junkie Gers crave success and titles like any other addict, to achieve this they are willing to lie, cheat, steal and defraud(all good junkie traits) to achieve this. They do not care who suffers or how they suffer as long as they get one more hit, the problem is once theyve had that hit they need another-and another-and another. So the lying the cheating wont stop as long as there is a rangers and a cup to be won.

johnnybhoy

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So Johnny boy....

Who did Rangers cheat, lie and steal from to achieve success? I am intrigued...

TTG

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Rangers' Owner Mr Whyte lied to eveyrone , Rangers cheated the taxman , they spent the taxmans' money to buy the players to achieve trophy wins , thus cheating Celtic out of titles and other clubs out of cups , does that answer your query ?

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The question is TTg who did they not cheat or steal from? Stole from tax man cheated everyone in scottish football

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10 Mar 2012 12:57:27
Morning bhoys and girls. Looking forward to the game 2moro. I would have Foster, rb Matthews Rogne K.Wilson and Lb Mulgrew. Lw Forest Brown Victor and Ledley. Hooper and Stokes up front. Any you guys going to betting on Cheltenham? If anyone hears of any tip post them up and al do the same. Bigirishmac

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Sammy on the left of midfield.

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10 Mar 2012 12:27:12
HOME TEAMS
chelsea,brighton,southampton
west ham,huddersfield,mk dons
oldham,stevenage,rotherham
shrewsbury £1=£69.77

AWAY TEAMS
blackpool,sheff utd,hartlepool,
ross county£1=£27.22

home,away acc £1=£690.77
stef1967

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Stef and Miko both your bets especially the 10 timers, need massive luck as there is always 1 team that lets you down, what I do is pick 6 teams then perm 5from 6 = 7 bets at say £1 total £7 then even if one loses you still have money back to bet next time with.
Wee tip for Cheltenham, there is a horse
called Scotsirish running Tuesday I think, has good record at Cheltenham should be 10/1 ish back each way hail hail Timalloy
PS topical horse today Newbury CELTUS got it on at 8/1

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10 Mar 2012 10:48:28
Rankers fans to hold meeting at castle grey skull today they are going to boycott all away games because everybody are laughing at them if a had been told That a would not have bought a ticket for castle grey skull and gave ma ticket money to a charity. hail Hail

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Any you guys got info on article in t,morras scotland on sunday about inquiry on celtic about alleged fallse attendance figures during 80s and 90s apparently the clubs been tellin porkies sayin and an attendance of say 40thousand was being put through the books as say 24thousand , this was a thing that always puzzled fans in years gon by , big trouble coming the clubs way - think , tedbear

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We're brickin it Tedbear!! Now toddle off to your Administration page, bye......Stevie

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Another straw clutching exercise.how would this be proved? as a court would say, hearsay.start worrying about your next bit of good news.got a feeling you might want to look out for march 16.it's circled in my diary.A Tim.

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Don't talk crap ,how can anyone prove how many we're at games. The clutching of straws from the tax dodgers continues......DH

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@tedbear, aye right, what a load of p*sh, good try at a wind up, but you're best just burying your head and get your backside up in the air cause the white knight has not finished shafting all you deluded "people"

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Castle grey skull is celtic park, snake mountain is ibrokes.

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This is 2012 bud, thats right...looking into bull from 30 years ago. you talk some nonsence.

Joeshmo1888

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Load of mince , who can look into it.
What proof will they have on it . And they can put it down to paying in the gate and door men pocketing money or people skipping in .

They can't look back on anything like that as they could not have proof 100 % on official attendance so anyone can look into it but nothing can come of it .

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Straw grasp deflect ha ah ah aha aha ha aha aha aha ahahh

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Even if that were true (how ever you would prov it I'd wonder) I don't think it would be too much to worry anyone. Afterall, by the time this season is done the rules will have been rewritten so often to ensure your survival it will utlimately ensure ours too lol

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Where did you hear that tedbear?

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Notice most of you guys sayin how could they prove the attendance scandal that was going on at your club , not "it didn,t happen ", very intresting , it happened alright and you all kno it , i remember years ago when gers fans would always wind you guys up cause we had a bigger attendances than you , yous would always hit back with , oh our crowds are a lot bigger than the club says. , aye yous can remember alright , tedbear

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10 Mar 2012 09:37:30
Rangers admin have made redundant the London based rangers director for international business Asia and USA; Misha Shah. Why do that if you are about to negotiate with USA and Asian corporations? Loose your competent business negotiator in these cultures?

It's not going to happen, they only have p Murray and he has no money he is relying on the largesse of the fans immediately and sustainably. Ticketus is linking with him to get their money back, nothing else, and from the fans.

Dave King is no longer a blue knight or reported as such. He has stated he believes it's liquidation first and the SFA won't find him fit and proper to hold a directorship.

P Murray, the only sad option won't be given the club by D&P and they will go into Liquidation. {Ed001's Note - you obviously don't understand the process of administration if you even have to ask this question!}

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10 Mar 2012 08:52:49
Good morning to all bhoys and
ghirls. I hope you are in good voice
for the cup game tomorrow.Neil and
the boys are doing a grand job for
us. They have a team spirit that
shows no fear and they play the
game with sublime professionalism.
Cmon the hoops. We should enjoy
the ride and leave others to dwell
on their own inadequacies.HAIL
HAIL. CAT.

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Thats the spirit of true football fans

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10 Mar 2012 08:42:55
Big game tomoz, let's all get behind the boys and hope we can roar them on to a historic trebble. Time to get back to talking about celtic and let other non celtic matters run there course. Mon the hoops

DD

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10 Mar 2012 02:02:02
Celtic should take a look at Luke Hyam at Ipswich.
He's only 20 but is a real midfield terrier in midfield, like Brown.
He is only signed with Ipswich untill the end of June.

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Isnt is good to know that celtic
have the finances to buy players if
we want to

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