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17 Apr 2013 11:56:23
This started out as a reply to Lenny, but there may be enough points to start a new thread - it would be interesting to hear the thoughts of the regular posters.
I think the Scottish League and Clubs lost their way a long time ago. What other business alienates its PAYING customers like our Football does? The League stopped listening to the fans the day the SPL was started and got into bed with the TV companies. The terrible, botched decision to go with Setanta almost bankrupted our clubs - who with dwindling crowds relied more and more on TV money to pay the bills. It has come full circle. Right now, SKY is subsidising the survival of Scottish Football! Clubs make no real effort to get more Fans at the gate.
It doesn't help that we we always compare ourselves (with chip on shoulder at times) to our neighbours down south. Why the obsession with TV deals? There is probably too much Football on TV already. You have to get the product right first - then sell it as a package that TV viewers and advertisers MIGHT want to buy. The League is hawking its rights around to TV and Sponsors like the paupers we are. It is embarrassing.
Everyone agrees gate prices are too dear. But clubs won't drop prices in case they don't get an increased attendance to make up the cash difference. Catch 22.
I honestly think 'Summer' Football could be the answer. By Summer, I mean mid-March to November.
Close down Dec, Jan, Feb most of March. How many of you have been to pre-season games in short sleeves with the Sun on your back? Its magic when we get the weather! Evening kick-offs in sunlight/low light. How many have complained about sitting frozen, soaking wet in the Winter - or have blanked a match at the last minute due to the weather? Winter travelling to games can be a nightmare - Inverness at night?
We are constantly told gates suffer at the cramped festive program due to the cost at that time of year. How many 'floating' fans would take a walk down to their 'local' club on a nice sunny Saturday afternoon? If the clubs lowered the prices enough to make it attractive to these 'floating' fans - the combination would surely increase the attendances.
With regards to Europe and the National team, well we don't look like making a Summer World Cup or Euros any time soon - so no change there! Champion League Qualification is Celtic's goal every year. All our teams play the earliest Qualifying rounds in all Euro competitions - their first and most IMPORTANT competitive games of the season! Surely Motherwell, Dundee Utd etc would fare better playing these matches in the middle of there competitive season? Therefore helping to increase the co-efficient for future years? As The CL groups finish end of Nov/start of Dec it would be an ideal time to end our season, for last 16 qualification. let's be honest - we are not known for contesting the latter knockout stages often.
Lastly, back to the TV 'deal'. Surely, a unique selling point to SKY would be the fact that we would be the only competitive League Football being shown in the Summer months? We wouldn't have to compete with the EPL etc and our kick-off times would not have to be changed to the current setup - further benefiting the Fans and increasing attendances. Add The Rangers into the TV mix - who, like it or not, will be in the SPL eventually. Within 5 years we could actually have a League product to sell.
I'm not saying I have all the answers for the SPL chairmen. After all, I'm only a paying customer who has been watching Football for 20+ years.
What do I know?
kbt1978
1.) Bravo kbt. An excellent post very well put. I can honestly say I agree with every word of your post. The way things have been going over the last few years, summer football is becoming more and more appealing by the day.
Joeshmo1888
2.) Great post mate. You are spot on with the TV point, it is shocking what fans have to put up with because we must tie in to the EPL fixture list. Ludicrous kick offs for Celtic in Inverness, Dingwall and Aberdeen, leave fans with terrible early starts and in winter dangerous journeys.
Your point re attendances are also spot on. We all know the price does not match the product, but there is no way, under the present system this can change. Again I agree with you on summer football. This has to implemented as the positives far outweigh the negatives. Think of the money clubs would save on under soil heating and floodlights. The smaller clubs would have to consider a new contract system for their players, lower wages during the break for instance. But with the savings on utilities they could offer better bonus payments, which would be offset against better crowds. It's a no brainer.
For me your most interesting point is the European situation. Every club would benefit from being into their season when the qualifiers come around. Forget World cups and Euros, like you I don't see us reaching any tournament for at least ten years. This would also, as you say, be attractive to the TV companies. Good competitive games in the summer, better crowds and atmospheres.
Every club has to look at this. If they don't the SPL should go it alone. You cannot let clubs like Alloa, Stenhousemuir, Brechin or Annan a vote on this, it is too important. Only full time clubs with a sustainable financial plan should be involved in the negotiations. Great points and pretty much right all the way. Some tweaking maybe on the shut down but nothing else required for me. green jhedi
3.) Exactly my thoughts too. Spot on. The sky deal would be far better with summer football, not forgetting the interest through worldwide gamblers. If its good enough for Russia and Scandinavia it's good enough for the spl.
Bowbhoy
4.) Agree totally, there are too many positives on summer football, Sly would be imo extremely positive about this solution. It seems simple, but in most cases the simple solutions are the best. If the late great Tommy Burns thought summer football was a good idea who are we to disagree. Not only the finacial beneifts, the pitches we play on are better at this time of year, so technique would surely improve, as kids get to play and learn in better conditions. A great post
TheEssexHoops
5.) Very good post; We have been run into the ground by narrow minded (even corrupt) over-paid clowns who can't see past the end of their noses.
The needs and views of supporters are too often ignored and I include Celtic who often take the support for granted.
We (Scotland) have far too many teams and fans would rather wait and go bust, than entertain amalgamation or alliance.
I know it's easy to criticise, but asking fans to sit/stand in winter in 40+ stadia in such a small country is madness.
Summer football has been mooted before but because it is out of sinc with most of Europe and coincides with traditional summer holidays it has been rejected.
But you are spot-on about looking after ourselves and getting in line with Euro qualifiers in July etc.
For far too long our representatives have been under-prepared and caught cold and it affects needed income and co-efficient.
So I hope someone, somewhere has noted your valid points instead of chasing this 'SPL2' hugely inferior replica?
Jungle Jim
6.) Kbt your post makes too much sense for the blazers & is absolutely spot on, great post mate. HH AbS
7.) I totally agree. So 100% of people on this thread agree with you, no chance of it ever happening then.
It could only help attendances, fathers would happily take there bored kid along on a decent summers day. Not on a sub-zero dark winters day. I can only applaud your common sense. Good enough for TB, good enough for me.
Every year at the end of June I have a swear session which (drives my wife to despair) when I first notice that the football parks have taken the goals away. Drive's me bandy. When will they ever debate this properly and tell us why it wouldn't work.
Shuggy
8.) Excellently thought out post. There are a few things that stop summer football:-
1) I think summer holidays would scupper any chance of this happening. Would probably see as many empty seats in summer as in winter due to people not being in the country
2) Every 2 years there is a continental competition, Losing our players for 6 weeks then for them to have a break afterwards would be senseless
3) Policing costs. No Team in the Strathclyde area would be able to play at home during the Glasgow Fair due to overtime costs which would then be passed on to the clubs and some of the teams wouldn't be able to afford it
I would actually change the whole of Scottish football to -
1) 2 divisions. Top divison of 18. 2nd division of 24. Pyramid system below that comprising of Highland, East, West and juniors
Bottom 3 of 1st div relegated and top 3 promoted. 4th bottom and 4th top play off for place in top tier. Bottom 4 relegated from 2nd tear into pyramids with 4 joining them
2) Start the League Cup in July in pre season. gets competitive games and helps new signings gel. Invite 6 teams from pyramid system and have 8 sections of 6. Top 2 qualify for knockout stage.
League cup starting 11 to have minimum 4 under 21 players
3) Scottish cup. Ideally everybody would be in in 1st round and no seedings, but it would never happen
European places would be allocated the same way as just now, with 1 exception. If the Scottish cup winners have already qualified for Europe, that place doesn't automatically go to the next placed team in the League. I'd have that team play the League Cup winners (providing they hadnt already qualified) in a play off for the final european place.
4) Maximum ticket price of £15
Samson
9.) Great post and proposal. I wouldn't be over concerned about summer holidays interfering with attendances as I for one always miss at least one game but usually two over the festive period and no doubt so do many others. I would also suggest that every club negotiate with the authorities to have a pay at the gate section - we would then have a chance of attractiing casual spur of the moment supporters who just fancy a game now and then and let me occasionally take my kids to a game without investing in a season ticket or having to queue for hours for on the day tickets. cb
23 Mar 2013 12:48:20
Following last nights Scotland result (and performance) I decided to do a wee bit of research into the rankings/coefficient system that we all harp on about - but in honesty know nothing about.
It looks like Scotland may end up being bottom seeded in an expanded Euros qualifying next time (22 teams at the finals?). One last chance at qualifying for a major tournament then forever doomed to - ironically - the same as Wales for the last 20 years: seeded 5th and 6th in a group with 4 top sides and only 2 qualifying spots.
Primarily, I was interested in the National side, safe in the knowledge that the glorious Hoops had done the business this season - punching above our weight against the financially superior European Club Superpowers - and securing our Euro participation and financial future into the bargain.
Actually, the UEFA 'Country' coefficient rankings that take into account this seasons results are worrying to say the least. Terrifying to be honest.
The Country coefficient ranks the nation as a whole for club competition 2 years ahead (2014-15 season), the outcome of the League and the Cups dictates who competes (obviously).
It takes into account all member clubs of that Countries' association over the past 5 years: 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw. 4 bonus points are awarded for Champions League Group stage qualification, 5 bonus points for the Last 16, and 1 bonus point for reaching each of the QF, SF and Final of the Europa League or Champions League. The number of points awarded is divided by the number of teams participating from that country.
So far so good? Scotland's ranking in previous years was:
2008/09: 1. 875 points
2009/10: 2. 666 points
2010/11: 3. 600 points
2011/12: 2. 750 points
2012/13 (this season): 4. 300 points
This gives Scotland's country (clubs) a UEFA coefficient of 15. 191 points for the season 2014/15.
We will have 4 European Club places ONLY: 1 Champions League place and 3 Europa places - 1 of which could be taken by a surprise Scottish Cup finalist (Gretna anyone?).
The most worrying thing is our ranking as a country (not the National side) UEFA rank us as 24th as a country. We have dropped 6 places from 18th last year. This is by far the biggest drop of all 53 countries. AZERBAIJAN have climbed 5 places! Incredibly CYPRUS have jumped 2 places to 14th and will have 2 Champion League places in 2014/15.
In current UEFA club rankings Celtic do not make the top 25. Interestingly, Juventus have jumped 24 places and PSG 26 places.
In 2008/09 Celtic qualified directly for the groups of the CL with Man utd, Villarreal and Aalborg, Rangers knocked out in qualifying by Kaunus. We never qualified from the group stage.
2009/10 Celtic were knocked out by Arsenal at the 3rd qualifying round of the CL. We dropped into the Europa groups (Rapid Vienna, Hapoel, Hamburg) Rangers were seeded 2nd in their CL group that season but were beaten 4-1 at home twice (Unirea from Romania and Sevilla).
2010/11 Celtic were knocked out of the CL and the EL qualifiers (Braga and Utrecht). Rangers qualified automatically for the groups against Man U, Valencia and Bursaspor. Rangers dropped into the Europa where they made the last 16 by knocking out Sporting Lisbon - losing to PSV on away goals.
In 2011/12 Celtic were reinstated in the Europa at the expense of Sion who were disqualified. Celtic played Atletico Madrid, Rennes and Udinese but did not reach the knockout stages. Rangers were knocked out of both CL and EL to Malmo and Maribor.
During this whole 5 year period no other Scottish club achieved anything of note in Europe - most being knocked out in the early Europa Qualifying stages every season.
With The Rangers being ineligible to play in Europe for the next 3 years minimum - that leaves Celtic to fly the flag for the nation as a whole for the foreseeable future. With only ourselves being able to contribute to the coefficient in any real way, it can only be assumed that we will be playing 3 CL qualifiers starting July every year. FFS it looks like we ARE Scottish football at the moment!
The 3rd (Final) qualifying round will undoubtedly mean we face a higher ranked country and therefore a possible Spanish, English, German or Italian side (not to mention the rest).
When you look at the UEFA rankings (en. wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_coefficient) I think you will all REALLY appreciate how good a job Neil Lennon and Celtic did this season - and how unbelievably difficult it is going to be to maintain that level.
We need continued European football. We need the cash it generates. What do the board do in the summer? It is going to be $h1t or bust every single July, before the season has even started!
Realistically, are we going to gamble any money of note? Yesterday, I posted about making making a move for Rhodes - Austin is continually mentioned. A good £4-5M minimum for each. Realistically, it ain't going to happen. is it?
One thing is for sure - this might be THE most important summer for Celtic (and Scottish Football as a whole). kbt1978
1.) Amazing post mate
2.) Rangers fan peace guys I have said this for years we need all our teams to progress as far as they can to make Scottish football more interesting forget the rivalry and get behind the Scottish clubs in Europe the sfa spl should help our clubs more before European games as fans we should encourage success for other clubs even our rivals its time we all moved forward to support the game in Scotland I thought Celtic did very well in Europe this season and if you are a true fan give support to the other teams involved op fantastic post well said
22 Mar 2013 11:31:38
With regard to potential summer signings - Jordan Rhodes should still be our number 1 signing target IMO.
If Blackburn continue to implode they will get relegated. They are in a financial mess. As transfer fees are paid in installments, we could get lucky and pick up Rhodes for the original fee Blackburn paid. The full amount was based on appearances, goals and PROMOTION.
He has not really set the heather on fire there - although the team is sh1t£ to be fair. There might not be the scramble for his signature this time round (if there even was one last time).
Still a lot of money but he is THE outstanding candidate to replace Hooper PLUS ticks all the boxes for the guys on the board who sign the cheques (mainly his age). He is also a big enough 'name' to satisfy the section of the support who will no doubt be demanding Lawell spends the millions we have made (plus any fees for Hooper and Wanyama).
I won't hold my breath as we all know how we conduct our business these days - and I am confident John Park will have cracking prospects lined up already. BUT if the deal could be right for Blackburn, and right for Celtic - Jordan Rhodes would be a great present for the fans. Goals equals bums on seats after all. kbt1978
1.) Not set the heather on fire? he's scored 20 goals in 32 games for a messed up side. Some record if that's him off form. he would scored 30+ in SPL no bother
2.) Rhodes has scored 20 goals in 32 games mate he's on 2. 184 Million a year tae, 20 goals in the Championship is like 30 in the SPL lol It's sad but true (Then again they do play like 8 extra league games than SPL and EPL) there's a guy at Birmingham who's on 65k a week and they were in Administration a while ago I think lol, It's crazy the wages down there. I am sure a Premier League club would get him as they would offer more cash Celtic would probably offer less, which is sad mate I'd love to see him in the hoops. Hail Hail GhreenBhoy1888
3.) 21 goals and counting I would say is a good return. would like to see him wearing the hoops. Austin is another one I like to see at park head. Mackay Stevens would be a great addition! I'm sure we will fill hoopers boots with quality.
4.) He will be on a huge salary - not to mention his last fee of £8M may have sell-on's?
I would say although the supporters would love to see him in the Hoops, he will not be on NL's wish list. To make it worse Kevin Doyle IS! More's the pity.
Jungle Jim
kbt1978's banter posts with other poster's replies to kbt1978's banter posts
26 Jan 2014 07:05:41
Morning folks,
Long time no post.
Been reading the, almost hopeful, opinions of people regarding potential signings. Personally, I doubt the clubs apetite for any major signing in this transfer window.
Apparently, according to todays media, there is interest in Griffiths for £1.25M. Griffiths of Wolves in League 1. Decent wee striker last season but hardly an exciting prospect.
A sobering thought came yesterday while listening to radio commentary of Bournemouth v Liverpool.
Bournemouth. 16th in the Championship - had a player on the bench - Rantie. They signed this guy from Malmo for a club record £2.25M (although radio quoted £2.5M).
The jist of my post is that it looks like even the Championship door has shut and the horse bolted regarding value for money signings. Does anybody realistically see us spending that kind of money next week? I hope so, but I don't see it.
Where now? I think this window is (and always was) more about who is leaving as opposed to who we sign.
The more transfer windows that pass, the more it feels like the club are hoarding money. Perhaps with a view to a certain club making it to the top league. Do yous think the cheque book will come out then? . kbt1978
23 Apr 2013 20:43:23
Got to say the season ticket reduction is fantastic news from Celtic and Peter Lawwell.
I read some unnamed poster (as usual) predicting this the other week and thought it was a typo (extra zero)! thank F^c% I never posted a dry reply! lol
But let's see how the 'Media' in Scotland report it. No doubt as a 'cynical gesture' to head off dropping attendances, due to a certain defunct club no longer being in the top division. Yawn.
I have posted recently about attendances in the whole of Scotland and possibly even summer football to address the problem - I just hope some other Clubs look at Celtics example and remember their is a recession still on for their own fans.
Remember, as Big Jock said "football is nothing without the fans".
Well done Celtic and all involved.
20 Apr 2013 04:58:14
Any truth in the rumour that the last Iron-Brew advert was pulled because Advertising Standards received a complaint from some fanny sitting on his couch?
I also heard there has been 2 recent complaints regarding its recent replacement advert - from a pair of tits no doubt - which unsurprisingly have been 'upheld'.
No further action will be taken. Except for taking the advert off air for 3 days due to the previous suspended sentence kicking in automatically.
What a mess caused by that single bleeding fanny eh?
lol kbt1978
09 Apr 2013 09:18:56
If Charles Greens "No surrender" comment is indeed true (I never heard it myself) then surely, SURELY, this is a public example of the new 'football hatred' law being broken? SURELY?
I have posted my opinion before on the Green Brigade, in the sense that they are not a political organisation and do not represent me. But, in terms of atmosphere, singing etc they are spot on. Superb in fact. However, if what has been happening to members of the Green Brigade is also true - (dawn raids) - then can we expect Mr Green to get a 0500 door chap?
If Charles Green is not brought to task by the full force of the SFA rule book then what message does that give out? That bigotry is alive and kicking, still, in the West of Scotland?
Even worse than using racist, sectarian language in public - is for silence from the media, SFA, Managers and even politicians. They are condoning it.
FFS Alex Salmond was never off the telly when 2 managers who know ALL about the Celtic/Rangers history and background had a word in each others ear. Charles Green continues to use dangerous language and rhetoric at every opportunity, IN PUBLIC.
I honestly pray Celtic do not draw them in a cup or have to play them while he is in charge. I have said it before - HE IS DANGEROUS. He will cause a riot some day - if he is not hammered down NOW.
He is indeed the worst type of bigot. One who does not actually have a clue about what he is saying.
08 Apr 2013 18:39:46
Finally, an interview that shows Charles Green in his true light.
Well done STV sport.
I was actually gobsmacked watching that. How he squirmed his way through. Absolutely cringe-worthy.
And Lionel Messi? f^c& me!
Surely now, all The Rangers supporters must see through him - and they loved to use the term 'dignity'. How the mighty have fallen.
Just one last thought - what if our manager had used the term 'p*ki' on the touchline at St Mirren park? exactly - so I will be expecting the full force of the SFA to fall on Mr Green.
Somehow I doubt it will happen
Is it not:
the first round we play in we are seeded, then it depends on the other teams who qualify (and their leagues) who is then seeded for the next round?
Every EPL player - even squad players - are on funny money.
With all due respect - how the F**£ can you possibly compare Big Jan and Hooper?!
JVH was a target man. He was a F*^£ing good one at that! He played alongside McDonald - who is a more similar type to Hooper - so you could possibly draw comparison there.
For some reason (Motherwell 2 goals?) McDonald seems to divide opinion - I loved the 2 of them as a partnership and thought we did miss wee Skippy when he left - great wee player and signing IMO.
Anyway I digress, back to Hooper. If you asked me at the start of the season I would have hated to see Hooper go. There are a lot of factors to take into consideration but honestly, I don't think now, that he would be that big a loss.
He is a good player and will perhaps go onto good things.
But, if he cannot commit to the club by saying 'I'm staying and signing' - then cheerio. Been down this road before with better players than Hooper.
And anyway - a new centre-forward brings a new dynamic to the team and more interest for the fans.
But if he says he wants to stay then fine. Its actually not that big a deal for me - its if our midfield losses a few and also wee Mathews - for me he would be a huge loss. He really is turning into a great player - all the focus is on the bigger 'names' leaving.
Post 2 sober up.
Larsson is BY FAR the best player in modern Celtic history - FFS he would get a game in the Lions team
Wolves are taking up their 1 year option on Griffiths.
Mulgrews biggest strength is also his biggest weakness. An ability to play many positions well, but not nail down and excel in one position.
I think he gets a hard time from sections of the support. Every modern squad needs a good utility player. Personally, I like Mulgrew.
O'Shea had the exact same problem at Man Utd. But was an excellent tea/squad player. Even played in goals. Craig Gordon has nothing to worry about there though. ;)
Common sense. The truth.
I'd love to hear RD's musings on the medias comparitive treatment of himself and McCoist.
The media definitely 'dumbs' down foreigners.
Dr Jo Venglos, Le Guen, even Wim Jansen FFS.
Apologies.
never read it right. never seen top division bit.
i'm stumped lol
I always thought that would be the case. Their fans will be shouting out for the 25 point deduction instead of the 10 for a first offence.
"No 10 points! gie us the full 25 deduction! we are the same club! always have been!".
A ridiculous scenario that could only ever happen in our wee country. Jeez, how did we ever manage our (massive) contribution towards modernising and industrialising the world?!.
Yeovil?.
sure their fans voted on strip change around 5-6 year ago.